Pittsburgh vs. Ann Arbor? (Oakland: crime rate, home, unemployment)

[Fiddlehead]

Great post BrianTH,

Yes, I think you are right about the fact that young folks begin to consider costs, they will reconsider the much more affordable areas from the industrial era. As many are in the East, they have often have architecture, forests, river, and other amenities that are very hard to come by in the West affordably. Here in Ashland, I gave up looking for move up homes years ago,because anything remotely nice was out of our range (often over $600k).

I believe California, in particular, has already "jumped the shark." The massive emigration from that state in the last 5 years has been a manifestation of what you predict. Young folks want to move somewhere where the schools are decent and housing is affordable. Missouri, in particular, is getting many Californians. The other huge stream, now thinning, is the bubble-rich, who moved into nearly every desirable town in the West, bought up the upper end homes. Sounds like Pittsburgh dodged that bullet,and that is good for you.

You are right about the limitations of the academic life, with respect to geographic choice. Hence, it is good to do due diligence, but not hold one's breath for the perfect arrangement. That said, I am passing on the Las Cruces gig, wife says no go on the desert. I think I agree.
Glad to hear that AA and the burgh both get such glowing reviews!

[PreservationPioneer]

I grew up in Howell, Michigan, which is about 30 minutes from Ann Arbor (we call it A2), Flint, Lansing, and Jackson (it's a little town in the middle of all these cities).

The winters are indeed colder in Michigan, and there will be more snow. The cities in Michigan, with the exception of Detroit, are very small. You won't find any urban density in Ann Arbor, or Lansing, or Flint, etc., except for the few blocks downtown. Ann Arbor has a lively and charming downtown, for the most part, but it is very small and mostly caters to the college. There is nothing to compete with Pittsburgh as far as history or charm go. I have an old atlas from 1930 and the population of Ann Arbor then was 26,000. That says a lot. Ann Arbor reminds me of Oakland. If you were to separate Oakland from Pittsburgh, and put it on a flat grade in the middle of farm fields, you would have Ann Arbor.

I am a bit biased because I left Michigan for Pittsburgh two years ago, but suffice to say there was no opportunity there. The economy in Michigan is the worst in the nation, and unemployment is the highest. If you have a good job, you'll probably be fine, but you'll have to probably stick to the same job as long as you're in the state, because there are so few others. Unemployment in Ann Arbor is in the double digits, probably around 12%.

Cost of living is Ann Arbor is high, but I think home prices have come down quite a bit since the recession. I remember about five years ago when you couldn't find a home under $200k in Ann Arbor. Last I checked there was one for $20k. Also, Ann Arbor isn't a metropolitan area. It's a small town and there are other small towns within commuting distance, so you wouldn't have to live in the city. But if you hate suburban-like sprawl, the area isn't going to make you jump for joy.

[Fiddlehead]

Thanks Angel!

No, I don't really care for sprawl. I have heard that a lot when describing SE Michigan. Also, you are right to remind me that Michigan's economy is the worst in the nation. Of course, Oregon's is number 2 or 3. My only reason for pursuing this is that my lifetime dream has been to be a teacher, and I am now at the age that I will either have to do this or pass. My current position is secure and pays reasonably well, but does not provide the paths for advancement I desire. Interesting conundrum when the present is good, but the future is muddle. Or chasing the future and taking risks. That is the issue for us.

[PreservationPioneer]

Michigan is indeed a beautiful state, and so is Pennsylvania, but their differences are like night and day. PA is hilly and has lots of greenery, Michigan is flat (there are some hilly areas, but the hills are small and spread out rather than steep) and you can generally look across a landscape and see for miles and miles in the distance. It's not as flat as Illinois or parts of Ohio, though. The great lakes are absolutely beautiful, and so are the beaches, but the water is always freezing cold. Michigan has lots of quaint small towns and villages which are fun to explore. I graduated college in Mt. Pleasant, which is in central Michigan, and many day trips were spent just driving around exploring historic little towns. I remember when Michigan was a better place to live, when everyone had jobs, made good money, and even McDonald's was paying $10 an hour. Now everything is the opposite of what it was in the prosperous 1990s. Most people are out of work, collecting unemployment, or fearing layoffs. People are losing their homes right and left, foreclosures are everywhere. The major cities of Michigan -- Flint, Detroit, Lansing -- died long ago and are now mostly blight and poverty. Ann Arbor is a bright spot but I have never considered it a real city -- just a big college town. Grand Rapids is the best city in Michigan, by far, but it too has fallen on hard times. My parents own a small business in Michigan and they are barely holding on to it. Pennsylvania has been quite a contrast for me. Suburban development is older than Michigan's. In Michigan, you have miles and miles of endless suburban development, full of McMansions, big box stores, and apartment buildings (mostly because nobody lives in the cities). This was the main reason I left Michigan, besides the drought of jobs. There are also very few young people in Michigan who stay post-college, because most have to leave the state for employment. Thus, it is hard to make friends, because most are only in a certain town until they finish school, and they are off to somewhere else. I have lost many great friends because they left Michigan. It was inevitable that I would leave, too. Pittsburgh is a great city. The people who live here constantly complain -- my guess is they don't realize how good they have it. Pittsburgh is one of the few cities in its region where it is still fashionable to live in the city. Downtown, South Side, Mexican War Streets, and the east end neighborhoods are all very popular and prestigious areas to live. This would be unthinkable in Detroit, Flint, Lansing, Jackson, etc., where it is only fashionable if you live in a small town or suburban area outside of the city! Obviously, Pittsburgh has these areas, too, but they aren't the only choice. In Michigan there is a huge anti-urban philosophy. I don't know how Ann Arbor escaped this, but Ann Arbor is decidely less urban-feeling than Michigan's other cities, besides the fact that the immediate downtown is very walkable and is full of boutique style stores and businesses, and is vibrant. Downtown Ann Arbor feels almost exactly like Squirrel Hill.

[dugdogmaster]

Originally Posted by Fiddlehead

Being in a flat state would be shock for me, but then again, I would learn about lakes and glacial topography.

You can learn all about that in PA, too. Most of western PA was formed by glaciers. Lake Erie is not that far from Pittsburgh, a quick 2 - 2 1/2 hour jaunt up I79. And Presque Isle State Park is beautiful!, though personally I think The Dunes still blow it away, haha.

GoErie.com :: Presque Isle

Erie Pennsylvania ...Feel the Lake Effect (http://www.visiteriepa.com/presque_isle_state_park.shtml - broken link)

[dugdogmaster]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

By the way, I agree about lots of young people starting to be priced out of a middle class lifestyle in some otherwise attractive cities by the cost of housing--in the worst cases, even a dual-income professional couple may not be able to afford to buy a decent well-located home. I can't believe this is a stable situation, so either housing price differentials will have to come down further than they have so far in this cycle, or mobile young people will start migrating to less expensive cities, which could actually result in a bit of a reversal of the long term migration trends in the post-industrial interior cities.

The prices will not come down any further, I don't believe, unless there's another housing crash in the near future(But I highly doubt that'll happen), as our wonderful government has been trying to re-inflate home prices ever since the bubble burst last year. I believe we will begin to see more in-migration throughout the U.S. to cheaper areas.

[greg42]

This is not very helpful, but it's fun. I drove through Ann Arbor on the way back from Hell.

Hell, Michigan USA 48169

Love how they have the PA 666 signs on the site. Not actually anywhere near their town. Cheesy, yes, but we sent a bunch of postcards from Hell. We thought the guy was joking when he said they'd burn them and get them into the mail. Nope, they arrived burnt around the edges. Too funny.

Good for a laugh, about 15-20 miles northwest of Ann Arbor. Gets lots of snow in the winter, and even in April when we were there, snowing in Hell.

Although, I suppose I should admit, we mainly went to Michigan for a concert in Detroit (well, the Palace of Auburn Hills) that wasn't coming to Pittsburgh. Another time it was Columbus, Ohio that we went to. That was an option again, but we wanted to go somewhere different. These were arena venues, so perhaps the modern arena now under construction in Pittsburgh will change this a bit. Okay, there, I got it sorta back on topic.

[dugdogmaster]

[DANNYY]

Pittsburgh, it's on a whole different league than Ann Arbor. I did my first year of college in Ann Arbor, MI. It was awesome, but the city isn't that large.

[nuwaver88]

Originally Posted by OmShahi

Pittsburgh, it's on a whole different league than Ann Arbor. I did my first year of college in Ann Arbor, MI. It was awesome, but the city isn't that large.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe you could compare some of the areas around Pitt and CMU to Ann Arbor, but not the whole metro. Well, I guess you can compare anything, but they may be quite different.