Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Rehashing a thread I posted to the Ann Arbor site a week or so ago. Here's what I know. Pittsburgh is larger, hillier, and less expensive. I have a job application into Michigan and will be applying to Pitt this week. Has anyone been to both towns and can compare their strengths and weaknesses? How about Pitt vs. Michigan? Most folks here now know my family loves books, hiking, trail running, museums, and winter sports.
Not surprisingly, the Ann Arborites were big fans of their city, and it does sound charming. However, surprisingly few who responded had actually been to Pittsburgh. Tiger Beer suggested I post it here too. So, have any of you spent time in both places and can venture an opinion?
Personally, I am enjoying the heck out of the Pittsburgh board. Lots of action and great comments. It sounds like an interesting area, but so does Michigan. Let the battle commence....
I'll add what little I know...I grew up and went to college in Michigan, but not in Ann Arbor.
I've briefly been to both Pittsburgh & AA...but never lived in either one or spent significant time in either one.
For you, if you were working on the UM Campus...it would be ideal in Ann Arbor, as the city and the college are very intertwined. For UM students, it's great because the campus is also spread around downtown, as they intermix well. Meaning you can attend a class, and quickly enjoy amenities around the town - as opposed to another kind of campus which might be removed from the downtown and out in the sticks.
I can think of VERY FEW negatives about Ann Arbor...but it is costly, and probably one of the best, if not THE best city to live in Michigan (well for people who prefer the progressive/interesting thinking that goes with college towns). Because of the costs, some people choose Ypsilanti nearby for living...or you can always live quite a bit out, and costs go down quite a bit for housing. (In short, it is much more affordable in Pittsburgh).
For people who aren't related or connected to the college, AA still has a lot to offer, but the city isn't anywhere near as large as Pittsburgh. Some people in AA like their proximity to Detroit - but honestly, Detroit has little to offer except its big events that take place there - which is something in itself. But highly unlikely you'd take a drive in and around Detroit unless it is a big event you are going to.
The other thing about Ann Arbor, and most of Michigan for that matter, it is flat. I grew up in Michigan and never saw mountains until I got in a vehicle and drove eastward around Ohio and into Pennsylvania headed towards the East Coast. I saw the mountains right on the PA border and was in awe of them, and then came into Pittsburgh and saw all of the city lights everywhere from up above, and pretty impressive at that time as an 18-year-old. That was 20 years ago now, and I've seen many other mountains, so maybe I wouldn't be nearly as impressed. Perhaps more than anything it is a reflection of just how FLAT Michigan is as well.
Overall though, I'd say that if you were to get a job at UM-Ann Arbor...you'd be in a great place in a very self-contained small city with enormous things that it offers. It IS a great place. It also attracts international students - I can't remember the Asian population but it is something in the 10-15% category...which is significantly higher than Pittsburgh which I think is around 4%.
For me, Pittsburgh, while I don't know it very well, seems very attractive. I like the fact that it has all the city amenities, mountains, and everything else. Actually, I don't think you'd go wrong with either place.
Maybe someone else knows Ann Arbor better than me and would definetely know Pittsburgh better can add much more than I can though.
So I grew up in Michigan and actually spent my summers during college living in Ann Arbor, and after that continued to visit friends there.
The core part of Ann Arbor is great in my view--a classic college town with walkable neighborhoods, nice housing stock, several distinct commercial areas, some great parks, and so on. But as you have discovered, it has also gotten pretty pricey. Meanwhile, there is substantial sprawl going on around Ann Arbor, which can be more affordable but really doesn't have the same charm.
In comparison to Pittsburgh, I frequently claim the East End part of Pittsburgh feels a lot like a college town, and Ann Arbor is one of the top places I am thinking about when I make that claim. But then of course you have the rest of Pittsburgh too, and that just means a lot more variety and amenities than a city the size of Ann Arbor can provide. Of course Ann Arbor is in the Detroit Metro area, but that is really not comparable in terms of convenience (and Detroit, suffice it to say, has some issues). A final point in Pittsburgh's favor is that there is a more exciting collection of outdoor stuff to do in and near Pittsburgh--the best outdoor recreation areas in Michigan are pretty far from Ann Arbor.
I guess from my perspective it is great to be able to have a college town vibe in your local neighborhoods while also having easy access to a larger city's amenities. And if you can do that for a lower cost of living, that is really fantastic. But if you don't value those things and would probably be living in the suburbs--well, actually, Pittsburgh still costs less. This would probably be a tough sell to the Ann Arbor folks, but I honestly feel you would have to somehow really dislike something about Pittsburgh for it not to end up seeming preferable to Ann Arbor once cost of living was included.
As for Pitt versus Michigan--Michigan has long had a reputation as one of the top public universities in the United States, and Pitt has not generally been considered in the same class. But recently I think that gap has closed a bit, although certainly not entirely. A little of that is Michigan slipping a bit (for complex reasons, including perhaps being caught up in the general problems of the state), but mostly it is just that Pitt has been advancing in terms of research prominence and student body competitiveness.
The amenities and costs of Pittsburgh way outweighs Ann Arbor. I am thinking now that even IF they were equal in housing prices/cost of living, I think I'd STILL choose Pittsburgh, just because it still has all the universities PLUS everything else so interesting going for it.
However, if you were to get the job in Ann Arbor, that certainly would NOT be bad either.
Your post is very helpful, and jives with my research on AA so far. The job at AA is pretty stellar, and the pay is good, so it would make the cost of living difference a wash. I like the geography and look of Pittsburgh better, for the reasons you mentioned, and my instincts are telling me I could do good work there. Also, the climate seems considerably milder than AA. Not a huge amount, but enough to make the winters shorter and less imposing. I love snow, but my wife does not want to be house bound for months on end.
Being in a flat state would be shock for me, but then again, I would learn about lakes and glacial topography. I have not heard anyone imply Michigan is not beautiful. P'burgh, with close access to the Alleghenies, seems very nice. I keep daydreaming about moving to Pittsburgh, and occasionally taking my wife and son for vacation trips to the dunes along Lake Michigan, where water actually gets WARM in the summer.
In any case, I love learning about places. This city data forum is a wonderful place for that.
I think I agree with the general conclusion that Pittsburgh may have a slight "livability" edge due to the surroundings, cost of living,etc. I think the cost of living thing is huge. The middle class has been shrinking for a while now, and finding a place you like and can afford at a semi-early point in life is a big advantage. Out west, the RE folks have been touting $300-500k+ "starter homes" for while now. How does that work if you are not dual career neurosurgeons?
How about climate? I gave that to the burgh too based on milder winters (my wife's concern), but the gloom and wetter summers in W. PA might go the other way. What do you think?
Vis a vis academic jobs, they are like needles in haystacks, so one does not cast them aside unless supremely confident and well-connected. I am neither. So, if Michigan makes a good offer, I would be insane to walk. That said, my heart is saying check out the burgh. And if I don't get on base, at least I will have learned about some very cool places.
The climate of Michigan is a big turn-off for me as well. Having lived all over Michigan, just going even a little bit south in the same state makes a big difference weather-wise. I can remember even going into northern Indiana/Ohio as a kid, and thinking how much milder it felt. I'm sure its still cold in Pittsburgh, I can tell from photos, but not AS MUCH as in Michigan!
Also, if you were in Ann Arbor, you probably wouldn't get to the beaches as often as you'd think. Plus they are really only worth it during the summer months which is basically July & August. Even in June, the water and wind is a bit too cold for the beach. It's always about 10 degrees colder right on the Great Lakes as well. (Which IS great in July/August when its quite humid everywhere, but in June hasn't quite hit that humidity peak yet). Granted you could still make the drives along the Lakes other times, even winter, as there is a beauty to seeing all of the ice and ice fishing done out on most Michigan lakes in general.
Actually, Michigan is an incredibly beautiful place, BUT personally I think its at its most beautiful the further north you go. There are an enormous amount of national forests and of course the the Great Lakes converge, so your proximity to them is greater and greater. Speaking of which, Marquette MI in the Upper Peninsula has Northern Michigan University and is a really beautiful college town - nowhere near the status of UM though. The southern half of the Lower Peninsula is a bit more cornfields and flat.
Snowbound - having lived in Oregon for a year, where I noticed the government isn't equipped for snow, Michigan is significantly different. As there is a lot of snow, they are very well-equipped to deal with it. Local governments keep on top of it, and even when it's snowing, it is fine. Out in Oregon, the highways were a mess when it snowed. In Michigan, it is as if nothing is happening whatsoever, the roads are well-salted and clear. (Michigan salts the roads during winter, which is horrible for your car, and eats up the road, but almost immediately takes care of snow/ice issues with the road. In Oregon, they put gravel on the snow/ice, which gives a little traction, but does nothing to the snow/ice itself - hence snow in Oregon means the highways/roads suddenly look like massive parking lots of stranded cars). Also, you'll find you'll get out of the house quite a bit in winter in MIchigan, as things go on naturally and people kinda pretend like it isn't even there, but granted it is there, and the cold weather just drags on and on.
I'm a bit curious about what others might say about Pittsburgh and Winter. I saw many of the photos, and it LOOKS cold. It can't be as bad as MI, I'm sure, but still, it is there...BrianTH, perhaps?
Last edited by Tiger Beer; 10-04-2009 at 01:01 AM..
Pittsburgh winters are undoubtedly a bit milder than Ann Arbor winters. The big difference is the winter highs: Pittsburgh will have a lot more winter days where the highs are in the low-mid 30s whereas Ann Arbor's highs are in the mid-high 20s, and the highs during the coldest periods will probably be in the teens in Pittsburgh and single digits in Ann Arbor. Toss in some wind chill and you will notice the difference on many occasions.
Now personally, I actually like the colder winters because that means snow stays on the ground a lot longer. But I am half-Swedish and grew up in Michigan doing things like sledding, building snow forts, and snowmobiling during the winter, and I recognize other people prefer the warmer temperatures.
By the way, as for the summers it is true Ann Arbor will tend to get less rain in May through July, but Pittsburgh will actually tend to get less rain in August through October. Ann Arbor will have more clear days, however, for everything but that late-summer/early-fall period--although as we have discussed before, many of Pittsburgh's cloudy days have clearer periods, so the "gloom" is less consistent that the statistics suggest.
By the way, I agree about lots of young people starting to be priced out of a middle class lifestyle in some otherwise attractive cities by the cost of housing--in the worst cases, even a dual-income professional couple may not be able to afford to buy a decent well-located home. I can't believe this is a stable situation, so either housing price differentials will have to come down further than they have so far in this cycle, or mobile young people will start migrating to less expensive cities, which could actually result in a bit of a reversal of the long term migration trends in the post-industrial interior cities.
In fact, I consider our family to be an example: I basically started a second career by going to law school, and my wife and I contemplated moving to several cities for various reasons, most notably Washington DC (where I was working for the Department of Justice for a couple years after law school while my wife and son stayed in Pittsburgh), but also Chicago, Denver, Portland, and a few other places briefly. But once we factored in our love for centrally-located walkable historic neighborhoods and the prices for houses in the same in the cities we were considering, it really became a no-brainer to commit to staying in Pittsburgh. Indeed, looking at DC in particular, the sort of home we could afford even with me working as an attorney and my wife getting paid a bit more to adjust for locality would be a step down from the starter home we bought in Pittsburgh when we were mostly relying on just her salary at an earlier stage in her career. Conversely, the house we could (and eventually did) buy in Pittsburgh as a move-up home would be completely out of the question in these other cities.
So I think of us as people who just happened to get a head start on what I suspect will be a trend, thanks to the fact that we both happened to come to Pittsburgh for school (she got her MBA from CMU and I was originally a grad student at Pitt before deciding to go to law school instead). But as more and more young people contemplate the realities of trying to start a life in these hyperexpensive cities, I think they are going to take a look at cities like Pittsburgh, prior connection or no, and such a thing could snowball as some of those young people mature into entrepreneurs, provide a local base for certain sorts of firms, and so forth.
Finally, though, as a former aspiring academic who switched to law school in part to get some control over where I lived, I completely understand that as an academic you have to take the job you can get. So despite everything I have said, you should consider yourself very lucky if you end up somewhere as nice as Ann Arbor, even if it is true that ending up in Pittsburgh would theoretically be even nicer still.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
