Western Pioneers in the Burgh (Pittsburgh, Columbia: foreclosures, crime, buying)

[Fiddlehead]

Originally Posted by Katiana

There is an anit-Californian thread on the Colorado forum (again!) complaining of the above.

While I think it is not very useful to use stereotypes, nor does it really exclude anyone, I can sympathize a bit with the anti-Californian feeling.

Californians, as a whole, are are varied as anywhere, so plenty of great people. Probably only a few are "Californicators." The resentment for that type comes from the fact that many Californians, especially during the recent bubble, were able to sell their initially overpriced homes for ridiculously inflated bubble prices, bail out for fine spots all over the country, and price out the locals. Oregon and California were/are prime targets, not cheap, but cheaper. So, they do not come into the lower social strata,like most immigrants they come in at top, and because of the $200-$500k windfall to otherwise middle class people, they often would work part-time and still drive Volvos, Beemers, Hummers, and the like and brag about their days at "Cal" or Stanford. Now just about everywhere has some independently wealthy, but never in recent memory have so many been generated over such a short time for doing so little. And this coupled with a sense of self-mythologized superiority (especially in the Bay Area and environs) cultivated over the last few decades, creates a horde of "new rich" who are surprisingly ignorant about he rest of the country, and who tend to move to the same subdivisions and rave on about Cali. I have seen similar resentment in Colorado for Texans during the 80s oil boom, for similar reasons, and in Vermont, New Hampshire for the supposed "M*******s" [anatomical orifice and slight on folks from Boston Area] coming north and snapping up all the property. The sad conclusion for all this, is that all the rest of us, and our children will have had to pay the bill for this mortgage malfeasance, and the bailouts that followed. All the while, "Californicators" from various areas (Cal, Northeast, DC, S. Florida) are trying to find places to stash their ill-gotten gains with a minimum in taxation in locations all across the country.

For full disclosure here, I grew up in California, in Porterville, a farming town of the Central Valley. It was much more like Tulsa than Berkeley, with little to brag about economically, intellectually, or otherwise. But like most places, it was a nice town, at heart. I left the state for employment long before I ever bought a home, so I am as poor as the next stiff. No bubble money here....sigh....

I suppose it is also important to remember California was invaded by gazillions of folks over the last few years,including many rich easterners, which made a few investors very rich, and priced out plenty of the locals. So, at least they have had to deal with it too.

[Katarina Witt]

Texas housing tends to be less expensive than Colorado housing. That is not the basis of resentment of Texans in Colorado. In fact, Texans are not resented as much as they are riduculed, by some. People who wouldn't think of uttering a racial slur will make jokes about Texans. Texans, too, complain about migrants to Texas. My cousin once reported seeing a bumper sticker once that said "If you aren't from Texas, you aren't s***". This was in Dallas. We all had a good laugh about what that meant about being from Texas.

Estimated median house or condo value in 2007: $128,400 (it was $87,400 in 2000)
Dallas: $128,400
Texas: $120,900
Lower value quartile - upper value quartile: $83,900 - $246,300

Read more: //www.city-data.com/housing/hou...#ixzz0WUnKactA

Estimated median house or condo value in 2007: $234,500 (it was $160,100 in 2000)
Denver: $234,500
Colorado: $233,900
Lower value quartile - upper value quartile: $176,400 - $362,100

Read more: //www.city-data.com/housing/hou...#ixzz0WUnmHltG

Who is selling these houses to Californians, anywhere? It's the locals, who take their wad of cash and build/buy a McMansion. To place all or even the majority of the blame on Californians is a cop-out.

[Goodjules]

Originally Posted by Fiddlehead

Juliegt, a question. Do you know enough about Pittsburgh to compare its "character" to SF? It would seem that the culture would be quite different. San Francisco has attracted the smartest, artsiest, etc. for decades, so would seem to have a different feel than Pittsburgh, where the net pattern was emigration during that same period. Just curious.

I wasn't in Pittsburgh long enough to get a real feel for its character. That said, it did remind me a lot of the SF I knew growing up. I was visiting friends who are VERY involved in the local art scene and feel passionately about the role the arts play in revitalization. So I think I may have gotten a bit more optimistic view of the arts scene than reality warrants. I was impressed with the work they were doing and the infrastructure that had been created to attract artists to live/work in run-down neighborhoods. I know of no similar programs here like that. Housing costs are simply too high, even in the worst areas of SF.

Another similarity is higher education and teaching hospitals and the highly educated professionals attached to them. What is very noticeably lacking is the huge number of tourists SF has and the $$$$ they pour in to the local economy. I saw no tourists when I was in Pittsburgh. I was there in the summer when SF's downtown and tourist attractions are literally teeming with visitors.

SF and the Bay Area have a vibrancy that comes from being a major world player that I didn't feel in Pittsburgh. But while SF and Silicon Valley are economic powerhouses, they have experienced booms and busts too. The dot-com boom and bust is a prime example. Our outlying suburbs and pockets within the Bay Area and Silicon Valley have been hard hit by the foreclosure mess (my neighborhood is one of them - UGH!). I just read that foreclosure rates are ticking up in our more affluent zip codes. Not sub-prime loans, just people who bought luxury homes a few years ago and now they have lost a lot of value. But, we haven't had the prolonged exodus that happened in Pittsburgh when you lost the steel industry. Even with the current economy, there are still lots of people here making lots of money. Our housing prices are still on average, much higher than Pittsburgh's.

Also, San Francisco feels very crowded and Pittsburgh doesn't. I've heard that the city of SF (the city itself, not including the surrounding towns) has one of the highest population densities in the world. It sure feels that way when you're trying to find parking!

SF and Silicon Valley attract young ambitious people in the arts, sciences, business, and technology in huge numbers. I don't know how the current recession has affected those numbers, but the newcomers bring an excitement that adds to the character of the area. As I said earlier I wasn't in Pittsburgh long enough to really compare that sort of thing. Things in Pittsburgh felt like they were on a much smaller scale. Nothing wrong with that, just trying to explain how the character of the place felt to me when I was a visitor. Thanks for asking!

[Goodjules]

Originally Posted by Tiger Beer

Have you also looked at Providence, RI? A lot of Victorians out that way...beautiful. That seems to be another often overlooked city.

Haven't been there, but I've heard good things about it. How does their weather compare to Pittsburgh's?

[Goodjules]

Originally Posted by Hopes

California transplants can be annoying. They often whine about how much better it is/was in California.

I have known people who havent' lived there in 20 years, yet they still can't stop tearing down where they live and make it very clear they wish they were still in California.

I'm guessing that attitude would be more prevalent in people who relocated due to a job or for some reason other than choosing to move because they had researched and visited and liked what they saw. I know if I do move to Pittsburgh there will be things I miss - the weather, being able to buy liquor just about anywhere for a great price - but I would be moving because of many things I like. Plus, I'm more interested in looking forward than looking back. I promise not to be a whiner if I move there! And, if after I move, it isn't what I hoped it would be, I'll move back. I won't stay for 20 years complaining about what I left behind.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by juliegt

I'm guessing that attitude would be more prevalent in people who relocated due to a job or for some reason other than choosing to move because they had researched and visited and liked what they saw. I know if I do move to Pittsburgh there will be things I miss - the weather, being able to buy liquor just about anywhere for a great price - but I would be moving because of many things I like. Plus, I'm more interested in looking forward than looking back. I promise not to be a whiner if I move there! And, if after I move, it isn't what I hoped it would be, I'll move back. I won't stay for 20 years complaining about what I left behind.

I wonder if what I described tends to be more of a Southern California mentality?

[Goodjules]

Originally Posted by Hopes

I wonder if what I described tends to be more of a Southern California mentality?

Nah! There are cranky whiners everywhere. Although I'd like to think they're all from SoCal, not up here in the far more sophisticated North <LOL>.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by juliegt

Nah! There are cranky whiners everywhere. Although I'd like to think they're all from SoCal, not up here in the far more sophisticated North <LOL>.

Funny! You and Fiddlehead are welcome to move to Pittsburgh. You both can help us screen future Californian migrants.

[Fiddlehead]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Texas housing tends to be less expensive than Colorado housing. That is not the basis of resentment of Texans in Colorado. In fact, Texans are not resented as much as they are riduculed, by some. People who wouldn't think of uttering a racial slur will make jokes about Texans. Texans, too, complain about migrants to Texas. My cousin once reported seeing a bumper sticker once that said "If you aren't from Texas, you aren't s***". This was in Dallas. We all had a good laugh about what that meant about being from Texas.

Estimated median house or condo value in 2007: $128,400 (it was $87,400 in 2000)
Dallas: $128,400
Texas: $120,900
Lower value quartile - upper value quartile: $83,900 - $246,300

Read more: //www.city-data.com/housing/hou...#ixzz0WUnKactA

Estimated median house or condo value in 2007: $234,500 (it was $160,100 in 2000)
Denver: $234,500
Colorado: $233,900
Lower value quartile - upper value quartile: $176,400 - $362,100

Read more: //www.city-data.com/housing/hou...#ixzz0WUnmHltG

Who is selling these houses to Californians, anywhere? It's the locals, who take their wad of cash and build/buy a McMansion. To place all or even the majority of the blame on Californians is a cop-out.

You are right that it is locals selling houses, and that the Californians aren't the source of all evil. I am hardly copping out to describe things from my position. I live in a town, Ashland, Oregon, where the impact of retiring and flipping, and McMansion building Californians has been massive.
I don't want to debate this other than to say people who were priced out have a reason for their resentment, and it is valid, not a cop-out to say why the folks driving up the home prices are sometimes resented. Please don't be insulting, it does not strengthen your argument.

While Texas housing is affordable now, during the 1980s oil boom Texans were riding high, bought a lot of real estate in Colorado, and were resented. Granted that was in Durango area in about 1985. I had no beef with the Texans at all. They seemed friendly.

[Fiddlehead]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Funny! You and Fiddlehead are welcome to move to Pittsburgh. You both can help us screen future Californian migrants.

Well, being the wage slave that I am, I have to get a good job there first!

Juliegt has great posts and a good attitude. I think she would be better qualified than me.

That said, I suspect the weather will do the best job. Many (but not all) Californians love their warmth and sun, and the cloudy, cold winters will keep them at bay better than anything else, I would suspect.

Not me though! There is no escape.....!