Pipes Froze---in Pittsburgh (Plum: purchase, drywall, plumbing)

[Johnny C]

Insulate the pipes. Shut the water off on the coldest nights and purge the lines.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by greg42

Seems like it couldn't hurt. Worst would be that it does nothing and gets a little drafty right next to it. At best it would solve the freezing problem.

Yeah, I figured it was worth a try. It would be easy to remove and repair the drywall if it doesn't work and feels drafty.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Johnny C

Insulate the pipes.

I'm trying to avoid tearing out the drywall. I lived with construction for enough years. If nothing else works, of course we'll do that. Definitely before we sell the house too.

Originally Posted by Johnny C

Shut the water off on the coldest nights and purge the lines.

That won't solve my problem because it relies on my being aware of WHEN.

I can always avoid the pipes freezing if I simply remember to check the weather forecast before going to bed. Clearly, I sometimes forget.

[Retiredcoach]

The simplest and least expensive route to go would be to allow the water to run/drip slowly through those very cold nights. It sure beats most of the expensive alternatives.

[greg42]

Heh, was just realizing again that I have a different problem in the really cold weather. The gas water heater makes a ridiculous amount of condensation, so much that I catch it with a bucket. The water heater is on the main floor in this house (not sure why, probably just saves a bit of plumbing), which is the upper floor of the two, and it drips down through a small gap next to the furnace flue pipe into the laundry room/furnace area. I was worried it was a leak at first but with some research and seeing it stop it turns out it's just a lot of condensation.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by greg42

Heh, was just realizing again that I have a different problem in the really cold weather. The gas water heater makes a ridiculous amount of condensation, so much that I catch it with a bucket. The water heater is on the main floor in this house (not sure why, probably just saves a bit of plumbing), which is the upper floor of the two, and it drips down through a small gap next to the furnace flue pipe into the laundry room/furnace area. I was worried it was a leak at first but with some research and seeing it stop it turns out it's just a lot of condensation.

This explains your problem:

5. What causes condensation, water dripping in the burner or on the floor around the water heater?

Many times gas fired water heaters are returned as leakers when the heater was not leaking, but rather condensation had formed. Condensation can most easily be defined as a reduction to a denser form (as from water to vapor). A perfect example of condensation is a glass of ice water on a hot day.

Whenever a water heater is filled with cold water, a certain amount of condensation will form while the burner is on. A water heater may appear to be leaking when in fact the water is condensation. This usually happens:

When a new water heater is filled with cold water for the first time.
When gas burns and water vapor is produced in water heaters, particularly high efficiency models where flue temperatures are lower.
When using large amounts of hot water in a short time and the refill water is very cold.
Moisture from the products of combustion condense on the cooler tank surfaces and form drops of water which may fall onto the burner or other hot surfaces to produce a "sizzling" or "frying" noise.

Excessive condensation can cause pilot outages due to water running down the flue tube onto the main burner and putting out the pilot.

Because of the suddenness and amount of water, condensation may be diagnosed as a "tank leak". After the water in the tank warms up (about 1 to 2 hours), the condition should disappear.

Do not assume the water heater is leaking until there has been enough time for the water in the tank to warm up.

An undersized water heater will cause more condensation. The water heater must be sized properly to meet the family's demands for hot water including dishwashers, washing machines, and shower heads.

Excessive condensation may be noticed during the winter and early spring months when incoming water temperatures are at their lowest.

Good venting is essential for a gas fired water heater to operate properly as well as to carry away products of combustion and water vapor.

So, before you pull that heater out, check it one more time and make sure it's not condensation your experiencing.

Consumer Information - Water Heater FAQs (http://www.dndphc.com/ConsumerInfo_WaterHeaterFAQs.htm - broken link)

[greg42]

I've read that very page before. It only happens when it's really cold out, thus chilling the incoming cold water a bit more than usual, and then when we do something with heavy use, like shower, it'll drip for a while until it warms up. Just like described. I don't really think it's undersized. It's a 40 gallon and there's just two of us.

The tank is old anyway, though, so I'll probably be replacing it fairly soon. I traced the serial number to being manufactured in 1999, so it's probably been in place 10 years or nearly so by now. It's definitely not in a spot where it would be a good idea to wait until it's leaking. In fact that's never really a good idea, but you can get away with it a bit more if it's on concrete right near a floor drain. With this one's placement I'd risk damaging subfloor, carpet, etc. I'd like to move it but because of the configuration downstairs there's really nowhere to move it to without doing a big production reconfiguration of things down there. It'd be nice to gain the closet on the main floor but it's just not a huge priority vs other things given the amount of work necessary. Just find a new tank that fits in the same place and leave it at that.

[hempfield mania]

Can you build a "pan" around the base to capture any possibly leaks? You will have a mess it if fails and leaks bad. If you can build or place a pan to capture leaks, you can add a 3/4" drain line to the base of it and route that to the nearest drain down below on the next level by drilling a couple of holes. Probably doesn't meet current codes the way it is built especially being located where you state. Not a problem for you now (other than possible damage) but would be a problem if you try to sell your house. You are right, standard water heaters last about 10 years plus or minus a couple years so you should keep an eye out or be pro-active. Keep checking the top of the tank where the water lines go in. That is where mine failed this past fall and started leaking. My dad and I replaced it by ourselves in a couple hrs and that was with an extra trip to Home Depot thrown in. Pretty easy DIY job.

[WILWRadio]

Originally Posted by Hopes

Okay. I'll play. I'm sure I'm walking into criticism!

My house is over 100 years old. My husband gutted it 30 years ago. The entire house is well insulated; however, he wasn't smart about the pipe placement for a bathroom he added for the second floor. The pipes run up the outside corner wall -- in a column that's in the corner of the living room and the bathroom above---and he failed to insulate the actual pipes. Of course, we could tear out the wall and insulate the pipes, but that would be a pain.

My brilliant idea is installing an air vent in the bottom of the column on the first floor. The kind that opens and closes. During super cold weeks, we could open the vent so the air inside the house could rise and warm the interior of that column. Apparently it doesn't need much to keep it from freezing since blowing a fan down the column always unfreezes the pipes.

I also toy with the idea of adding a second vent at the bottom of the column in the bathroom. The bathroom is always a tad colder than the rest of the house because it has a small baseboard radiator. I figured that two vents might help the air move from the livingroom into the bathroom to warm up the bathroom room a little more. This second vent has to do with comfort and nothing to do with the pipes freezing. It's not super cold in the bathroom. It's just slightly colder than the rest of the house.

That vent should help. Saw a story on the news here in KC about how a local plumbing company installed just such a vent for someone that had their kitchen pipes freeze. They installed the vent in the basement below where the water pipes to the kitchen run.

[greg42]

Originally Posted by hempfield mania

Can you build a "pan" around the base to capture any possibly leaks? You will have a mess it if fails and leaks bad. If you can build or place a pan to capture leaks, you can add a 3/4" drain line to the base of it and route that to the nearest drain down below on the next level by drilling a couple of holes. Probably doesn't meet current codes the way it is built especially being located where you state. Not a problem for you now (other than possible damage) but would be a problem if you try to sell your house. You are right, standard water heaters last about 10 years plus or minus a couple years so you should keep an eye out or be pro-active. Keep checking the top of the tank where the water lines go in. That is where mine failed this past fall and started leaking. My dad and I replaced it by ourselves in a couple hrs and that was with an extra trip to Home Depot thrown in. Pretty easy DIY job.

There is a galvanized pan in there with about an inch high lip all around, but it's rather pointless. It might protect the carpet in the hallway from a small leak, but the gas line and the flue pipe from downstairs come up through it so there are gaps that would allow water through into the subfloor and joist area. The TPR valve is plumbed with a pipe that goes down almost to the floor level of the lower floor (where there's a floor drain) so that popping wouldn't cause any problems either. But any kind of significant leak could actually threaten the furnace which sits almost directly below the water tank. I can get at the area below the flue pipe hole, where I could probably attach something that would divert the water. I don't think I can get at the area below the gas line hole because there's a big air duct in the way.

It's possible the pan situation could be better remedied while the water heater is out of there. I'm not planning to do it myself though. I did a couple of faucets recently plus the drain on a bathroom sink, and I've thought about tackling a new kitchen sink at some point, but messing with the gas and potential height differences in the pipes, etc, that's not sounding like fun. I don't know if it's to current code or not. It's not the first time I've seen it. It looks like a way to save on pipe and have the hot water a wee bit sooner. I'm sure it's the original location of the tank for this house. There's just no reason to take up that closet for this thing unless it was in there to begin with.