Border Disputes and Stereotypes: Western Alleghenies (Pittsburgh, Denver: transplants, home, to buy)

[Fiddlehead]

I am doing my best to read up on the many interesting towns and geographic wonders of the Western Alleghenies. Pretty complicated.

West Virginia has the mountains, but Maryland is no slouch. Pennsylvania has the industry. Ohio has the foothills, farms, and industry.

It seems like Pittsburgh is the biggest city around, but seems to consider itself more akin to East Coast industrial cities than the "Paris of Appalachia." And don't even mention what they say about Ohio.

West Virginians, I would assume, embrace their mountains and mountain culture, but consider Pennsylvanians snobs. Yet Morgantown seems do have many transplants and perhaps a city culture. My impression is that all the WV cities are quite nice, despite the negative stereotypes about the state.

Marylanders, well I don't know much about them at all, except the western tip looks pretty nice and different from the east.

And it seems that Ohioans like everyone, but get bagged on. They also seem a bit more conservative politically than the other three.

So, how do you all get along?

Sorry for this open-ended post. But it is a interesting part of the world, and I am doing my best to understand the geography. Recreational, political, cultural, humorous, or other responses welcome! I will cross post in all four states, so feel free to hear what the others say.

[Tiger Beer]

Hey Fiddlehead,

Not a Pittsburgher, as you know...and most people on the board know as well.

But a frequent admirer and lingerer on these boards...

I've 'fiddled' around trying to figure out the WV perception of Pittsburgh...and from what I gather...they embrace the city...and don't seem to think of it as snobby at all. From the WV persective. It seems based on fielding that out on the WV boards anyways. They seem to quite like Pittsburgh quite a bit from what I can gather.

The Pittsburgh perspect slightly baffles me though...as they don't seem to have the snob factor whatsoever...yet, seem to strongly want to disassociate themselves with the greater Appalachian region. That part remains the mystery...the why they do despite lacking a snob factor...and the fact that WV see them as not having a snob factor yet they kind of 'snob' that feature that exists all around their city. Plus the fact that Pittsburgh is so down to earth and so lacking in snobbery as well.

Confusing, but I think I KINDA get it....Pittsburghers watched 'Deliverance' the movie like everyone else, and can't seem to separate that image from the name 'Appalachia'. That's kind of the end result conclusion I came up with anyways Don't know if I'm right though!!

[Fiddlehead]

LOL! Yea, the Deliverance factor might be considerable.

Point is, I was suggesting that people might like the WV/W. MD/E.OH/W. PA quite a bit when you think of the impressive urban amenities of Pittsburgh, the scenic beauty and outdoor amenities of the region, and the affordability and lack of pretense. When you bring in Pittsburgh, Appalachia seems less backward, and Pittsburgh seems a bit more like an amenity-rich city a la Denver, Seattle, or Portland.

We'll see if the locals agree with the thoughts of a couple far-flung CD dudes!

[toosie]

Interesting topic - especially from someone far-flung and enthusiastic about the region

I concur with much of what Tiger said and will add...

First - You've probably heard the comment that PA is Pittsburgh and Philly with Arkansas in between. I'm a Pittsburgher and see some truth to that. Also, Pittsburgh is the "other" city in PA - not a sister city since we're very different - but definitely "less than" Philly. This tends to bare out not only in local and global attitudes but in politics as well. Whatever the reason, Pittsburghers tend to present themselves as Pittsburghers - not as Western Pennsylvanians or Pennsylvanians.

I see Pittsburgh as having no regionally-based attitudes toward MD, some regionally-based attitudes toward Ohio, and plenty of regionally-based attitude toward WV.

As far as Ohio is concerned, I think most of the attitudes are focused on: rivalry between Pittsburgh and the Mistake by the Lake; dissing the Browns; and perceiving Ohio as uglier and flatter than PA. And yes, Ohio tends to be more conservative politically and socially than Pittsburgh. But again, we are comparing a city to a state.

As far as West Virginia is concerned there is a difference between what Pittsburghers say and what we do.

What we say...There is a lot of Deliverance-based humor - WV is the butt of many a joke. If you're familiar with the Greaseman's radio show from DC from the 80s-90s, his skits about WV pretty much sum that part up. Even though Pittsburghers don't tend to be snobby I think "our" first impression of WV-ians is of poor, mountain, rednecks. The thing is, there IS a lot of poverty in WV and, although the state votes "our" way, they have a more homogeneous demographic and are more socially conservative than Pittsburgh.

What we do...Pittsburghers do avail themselves of the natural and man-made resources that WV has to offer - beyond just crossing the border as teens in order to buy alcohol. We know the population isn't made up of gap-toothed hillbillies. Every time a Pittsburghers and WV-ians relationship reaches the point where the Burgher can rib the WV-ian about being from WV an angel gets her wings

The above are just IMO - interested to see what others will add.

[Katarina Witt]

When I was growing up in the Pgh area, there was some disdain for W VA. It was perceived as a "hillbilly" state. I think some of that is still there, based on what I hear from my relatives there. There was an incident at the Pitt-W VA game a few years ago, where the announcers announced a "pick up truck with its lights on, W VA license E-I-E-I-O. It was a joke, but as I was told, the announcer lost his job. "Farmers" in general were held in disdain when I was a kid there; I think that is the basis for the dislike of Ohio.

Maryland is less of a concern in Pgh, at least in my recollection. Even Cumberland is some distance.

MSNsportsNET.Com -- West Virginia University Mountaineers

[Hopes]

West Virginian's attitude towards Pittsburghers is more of a rural vs big city mentality, but West Virginians don't necessarily consider Pittsburghers snobby.

My mother often sent me to spend entire summers with various relatives in West Virginia. I was always taunted for being a "city girl" who was afraid to get dirty. Totally not true. I could work a farm with the best of them. Since my family was wealthier, I owned nice clothes. When we were heading out for the day, I had no idea we were going to spend an entire afternoon at some distant relative's farm, and I wasn't dressed appropriately for getting down in the dirty. Maybe they always wear clothes that are appropriate for getting dirty, or maybe they simply know when they will be getting dirty. But I ruined many nice clothes proving I wasn't afraid to get dirty.

I was always accused of growing up too fast in the city. I specifically remember being accused of this after I rejected romantic interests from a distant cousin by pointing out that we were related. I guess the adults overheard me because I received a lecture during the car ride home about growing up too fast. All I knew was that cousins didn't date. I had no exposure in Pittsburgh to 5th cousins. To me, a cousin was a cousin and ANY cousin was taboo. How this translates into being too grown up blows my mind to this day.

My children were always considred less mannered than my West Virginian relative's children. The West Virginian children all say Ma'am and Sir to everyone, including their own parents. My children know to say Ma'am and Sir to authority or members outside of the family. In my world, family--even extended family---isn't the place for Ma'am and Sir. My children also interacted with adults on an adult level by participating in intellectual conversations. They possessed an adult sense of humor dripping with sarcasm. My West Virginia relative's children did not have these traits.

I think those are some reasons they feel city kids grow up too fast. Their children are more sheltered from the world and kept in a conservative pecking order. It's simply rural vs city and conservative vs liberal. Regardless, West Virginians like Pittsburgh because the city is always a nice place to visit even if you don't want to raise your children in the city. Those with wealth LOVE to spend their money shopping in Pittsburgh too.

[Fiddlehead]

Interesting that West Virginians like the Burgh, but the Burghers disdain WV. Probably not surprising. But it supports my suggestion that the Burgh embrace Appalachia (starting with that Toby Keith bar!), and assume their geographic leadership role with generosity. Their industrial hey day is done, but being a regional hub seems appropriate.

Now how about Ohio? Is it a disdain for farmers by residents of a (formerly) great industrial city? Or is it that Ohio already has multiple cities (Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Toledo) that might be perceived as rust belt competitors? Interestingly, Pittsburgh has developed a rich intellectual culture without too much pretense, with seems a wonderful resource to the region. Do any of the Ohio cities come close?

If not, I maintain the right role is leadership, not self-satisfaction. Out West, my impression of San Francisco is that most people their spend a considerable amount of psychic energy maintaining a sense of superiority rather than really leading all sectors of the state. They certainly have the intellectual ability there, but not really the desire to embrace the rural rabble, IMO. But perhaps that is the city mouse/country mouse dichotomy we see everywhere.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by Fiddlehead

Now how about Ohio? Is it a disdain for farmers by residents of a (formerly) great industrial city? Or is it that Ohio already has multiple cities (Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Toledo) that might be perceived as rust belt competitors? Interestingly, Pittsburgh has developed a rich intellectual culture without too much pretense, with seems a wonderful resource to the region. Do any of the Ohio cities come close?

Cleveland and Pittsburgh have a lot of similarities, esp. re: eds and meds.

[Fiddlehead]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Cleveland and Pittsburgh have a lot of similarities, esp. re: eds and meds.

I just read a very informative post on the Ohio thread that suggested NE Ohio has many similarities with the Burgh, so that would match your suggestions. I love CD for learning new stuff like this! Thanks.

[jimmyev]

Pittsburgh does have some sort of east coast/west coast snob thing going on. I was born and raised in the rural area to the north. I've been called 'hillbilly' for a variety of reasons - a pick-up, a beard, flannel, alt-country music, a slip of 'ya'll' from my time in Texas. I was never called a hillbilly in Houston, DFW or Austin. Or Chicago, for that matter. But they also seem to have the same snob thing against those uncultured yinzers. Which makes me wonder what the difference between a hillbilly and a yinzer is.