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and i thought you and your "we must Electrify every Railway / Transitway" was off , this takes more of the cake....
Do you have a specific point you wish to make?
Or that you can't provide a fact to rebut anything, and must resort to a vague attack?
If you do absolutely own yourself, your labor and the fruits of your labor, and the government cannot take it from you without paying just compensation, then you're in the U.S.A.
hogwash. So what if we're not a 100% pure capitalist society? We shouldn't be.
Do you wish to absolutely own yourself, your labor and the fruits of that labor or do you wish someone else to own it?
I will assume you'd prefer to own it all, yourself.
IF so, congratulations, you're a proponent of the republican form of government and capitalism, as defined as the private (not collective) ownership of land, houses, tools, chattels, and the fruits of one's labor.
IF not, and you wish to be compelled to work for the benefit of another, don't let us stop you from wrapping yourself in socialist chains. But, please, do not resort to violence to compel others into socialist slavery.
Virginia Constitution, 1776.
SEC. 6. That elections of members to serve as representatives of the people, in assembly, ought to be free; and that all men, having sufficient evidence of permanent common interest with, and attachment to, the community, have the right of suffrage, and cannot be taxed or deprived of their property for public uses, without their own consent, or that of their representatives so elected, nor bound by any law to which they have not, in like manner, assembled, for the public good.
All men ... cannot be taxed without their own consent.
All men ... cannot be deprived of their property for public uses without their own consent.
All men ... cannot be bound by any law that is not for the public good.
(If you recall, only land owning, tax paying citizens voted for "representation" and therefore were bound by all laws. Those who did not vote, nor consent, were not taxed nor deprived of their property.)
Who is obligated to pay for a universal health care system?
No one?
Or everyone?
If everyone, then there is compulsion.
No one is forced to work, even in a universal health care system. Therefore it is not compulsory labor.
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You jump to the wrong conclusion if you think any politician since 1935 was "right wing" / "conservative". That disinformation is shared by many. Even Senator Joe (anti-commie) McCarthy never attempted to repeal any laws that enacted all ten planks of the communist manifesto... including the "progressive" income tax. In essence, Congress is the most Communist organization in the USA, notwithstanding the Communist Party USA.
And yet they aren't seeking to abolish private property, only selectively take certain property from certain people, which I would call fascist, not communist.
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Show me where communism, socialism, or collectivism is NOT opposed to individual and absolute ownership of land, houses, tools, labor and chattels.
You said they were all equal, not that they all have one particular trait in common.
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Pardon the hyperbole, but spending most of one's working life in support of "other people" is pretty much "dying" from taxes. It certainly isn't "living large".
If you are compelled to "share your wealth", you're a slave.
I disagree. Only if you are forced to do specific labor are you a slave.
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Your conclusion is not supported by the facts, nor is your rebuttal cogent.
In American law, governments are delegated power to secure rights - not deny rights. Ergo, it has been long established that NO RIGHT is subject to taxation. I repeat NO RIGHT can be taxed.
However, since 1935, the "right to work", "right to own", "right to travel" and a host of other rights became subject to taxation, regulation and restriction.
Of course, it was "by consent" - hidden in the fine print - but to the average American, it was by threat, duress, and coercion. This fraud was necessary, for no American in their right mind would knowingly surrender that precious birthright of sovereignty, freedom and independence, that the founding generation fought and died to bestow upon us.
Which goes to show that collectivists / socialists / communists / progressives are liars, thieves, and scoundrels.
You had me until that last overgeneralizing sentence. I already explained how those labels are not equivalent. You already agreed that it has nothing to do with who is a "progressive" because all politicians have been doing this since ~1935.
In fact, now that these things you speak of have been established, it could be considered that those seeking to keep them are conservative and those wanting to progress past them are progressives.
You may be on to something but you are crippled by your overgeneralizing bias.
No one is forced to work, even in a universal health care system. Therefore it is not compulsory labor.
If you really believe that, then who is paying the staff, buying the medicines, and making all the necessities of the health care system?
Keebler Elves?
Even if the government just "printed up" all the money, it would still require coercion.
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And yet they aren't seeking to abolish private property, only selectively take certain property from certain people, which I would call fascist, not communist.
Either you absolutely own private property or you don't.
Selective taking is still proof that private property ceased to exist for enumerated socialists.
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You said they were all equal, not that they all have one particular trait in common.
Perhaps you came to that conclusion but it changes nothing. They do share the common trait of predation, under their law - the law of the jungle.
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I disagree. Only if you are forced to do specific labor are you a slave.
If you work where you wish, but someone takes away your remuneration, you're still a slave. You may even lose only a portion, but if it is by threat, duress or coercion, you're a slave, part-time.
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You had me until that last overgeneralizing sentence. I already explained how those labels are not equivalent. You already agreed that it has nothing to do with who is a "progressive" because all politicians have been doing this since ~1935.
You assume an agreement not stated. A thief by any other label is still a thief. A slaver by any other label is still a slaver. A pirate by any other label is still a pirate. Though they share the stolen booty among their fellow pirates, it doesn't change their vile nature.
We have the best Congress money can bribe. The irony is that the law, in the public record, is based on consent. But since fraud was used to get that consent, it is not excused. The vast majority are misled to believe that they are compelled to comply - or suffer punishment.
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In fact, now that these things you speak of have been established, it could be considered that those seeking to keep them are conservative and those wanting to progress past them are progressives.
Not quite accurate.
The partisan labels of "left" and "right" refer to opposition to tradition and support of tradition. The "Progressives" were never in favor of tradition or the status quo.
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You may be on to something but you are crippled by your overgeneralizing bias.
It is weak rebuttal to my denunciation of government sponsored thievery under the "ideology" of the collectivists.
In 1776, America's governments espoused the noble goal of securing rights and governing those who consent.
In 2010, America's socialist governments espouse the ignoble goal of stealing property, denying liberty, and compelling people to labor for the benefit of others... under threat, duress and coercion.
Last edited by jetgraphics; 06-12-2010 at 02:24 AM..
It's not hard to comprehend. It's common sense. Just use the following statement to determine the true nature of collectivist / socialist / communist piracy.
"No one should suffer for lack of {fill in the blank}", must be prefaced with "No one should be compelled to labor for the benefit of another, so that...."
"No one should be compelled to labor for the benefit of another, so that no one should suffer for lack of medical care."
"No one should be compelled to labor for the benefit of another, so that no one should suffer for lack of food."
"No one should be compelled to labor for the benefit of another, so that no one should suffer for lack of an education."
"No one should be compelled to labor for the benefit of another, so that no one should suffer for lack of shelter."
Slavery is never an acceptable solution to the ills of mankind.
No matter how you twist it, the bare facts expose the truth - that the collectivists / socialists / communists are thieves, slavers and lying scoundrels.
I have not seen such a big pile of crap since I last visited the Budweiser Stables.
I would far prefer working for the collective than working for some owner's profit.
That is an interesting statement of confused terms.
Working for the collective that "owns" you is preferable to working for some "owner" (of you?).
In the former Soviet Union, they had a saying, "They pretend to pay us, and we pretend to work..."
Let me restate the underlying issue:
Would you prefer to absolutely own yourself, your labor and the fruits of that labor
-OR-
Would you prefer to be owned?
Take your time, and think hard.
Me?
I prefer absolute ownership by each individual. I prefer that my right to life, liberty and property ownership is not dependent upon the permission of the collective state. I prefer freedom over submission, no matter how pleasant that slavery may be.
Luckily, the founding documents do describe that situation - where the individual and his rights are not at the mercy of the majority. And those rights are an endowment of our Creator, not derived from the government.
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