Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-15-2010, 09:41 AM
zox zox started this thread
 
344 posts, read 477,954 times
Reputation: 175

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
You don't know much about world affairs I gather ? I suggest you start reading a little more about subjects you are obviously woefully ignorant of.


Hindu fundamentalism has recently been responsible for a lot of extreme violence against Christians, Muslims, women etc... Funny those stories don't make it to the US... Or mainstream Western news. And Hindy violence against non Hindus or "straying" Hindus is on the rise.


Just as extreme as any other religious/political extremists/fundamentalists and just as dangerous. But I guess as long as they don't venture onto American soil to preach hatred they will be ignored. Unless white people are killed who cares seems to be the motto of many people on this forum.

Fundamentalism comes in ALL shapes and sizes and from all quarters. And all of is is dangerous and kills.

BBC - BBC Radio 4 Programmes - The New Hindu Fundamentalists


Hindu extremists' reward to kill Christians, as Britain refuses to bar members - Times Online

Hindu extremists 'will attack Valentine's Day couples' - Telegraph

Hindu extremists held over deadly bombings | World news | The Guardian

Bollywood star Shahrukh Khan takes on Hindu extremists over cricket - Times Online


Hindu extremists burn down village churches - Asia, World - The Independent


INDIA Karnataka: Christians attacked by Hindu extremists, arrested by police - Asia News




Muslims do not have the monopoly on violence. I know it's hard for some to swallow but the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful , law abiding citizens with the same wants and needs you and I have. As are most Hindus, Christians ,etc... A small and very vocal minority of fundamentalists highjack certain issues for political and personal gain . And sadly on ALL sides some people become radicalised for various reasons and we all pay the price.
Obviously, if you do a google search, you can come up with anything but that is hardly the norm. This response is so ridiculous, I don't know where to start.

First of all, Hinduism is a philosophy and not a strict religion. It's not based on any lineage to Abraham so there is no conflict with Christianity and Judaism like Islam. Hinduism does not advocate the conversion of anyone. Go to any Hindu temple and no one will bar a Christian or a non-Hindu from entering. If you don't believe me, test it yourself. Find a Hindu temple in your area and walk in; no one will tell you "You are not allowed in here or are not allowed to observe services."In fact, there is really no such thing as conversion in Hinduism, there is no ritual for it even. Hindus believe Jesus Christ was the son of God which both Jews and Muslims don't believe. Hindus believe Jesus was another avatar of Vishnu. This is why Hindus love and embraced Mother Theresa and it's also why she chose to spend her life in Calcutta because she was embraced in return. This is why in India, there are Catholic churches and Christian schools everywhere. Many Hindu children attend Catholic schools. The Pope has also visited India regularly; how often has the Pope been to Iraq, Syria and Iran for example?

Second, Christians have settled in Indian for centuries. So Indians have been living with Christians for a long time. And unlike the Arabic countries, there was no widespread movement to kick out the Christians in the 1950's and 1960's. There are a lot of Christians still living in India unlike the Arabic countries and Iran.

I agree most Muslims are peaceful however don't compare Hindus to Muslims with regard to extremism. Muslims dominate that category. I don't recall Hindus blowing up buildings or having suicide bombers. Even when Pakastanis committed violence against India and set the famous Taj Hotel in Bombay on fire, India did not react with violence so don't even attempt to compare the two. The Taj is not just a hotel in India, it's a landmark and a place of pride; it would be Bombay's version of the Empire State Building. Indians and Hindus were extremely upset but unlike Musllms, they didn't respond with terrorism. You didn't see Hindus going to Pakistan the next week and blowing up a famous structure in Islamabad.

Last edited by zox; 06-15-2010 at 10:01 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-15-2010, 09:54 AM
zox zox started this thread
 
344 posts, read 477,954 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
That's an interesting question. There are some Hindus who say once born a Hindu, one will remain a Hindu till death, regardless of any conversion... Likewise one can't convert to Hinduism.
Hinduism is not even a religion but a philosophy. Hindus see everyone as a Hindu regardless of who they pray to. God is universal and different faiths are just different manifestations of the same God. However, if a Christian wanted to call themselves a Hindu and attend a Hindu service on a regular basis, they can easily do so. There are no rules to becoming a Hindu like there are to become a Jew, Muslim or Mormon for example. You don't have to satisfy a ritual, have a sponsor or marry someone or anything like that. You just show up. It's pretty similar to most Christian churches. If you want to become a Christian, you just show up to church and accept Jesus Christ and you are good to go.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2010, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by sailordave View Post
I honestly don't know what a sikh is. I do know the men wear turbans to keep their long hair up and tight and they grow beards and moustach. That's about all I know about them.
Sikhism is an offshoot of Hinduism, and may be seen as one also influenced by Sufism (Islam), perhaps even Buddhism. But then, morality is generally universal across many religions. And just like the religious beliefs based on tolerance (and equality for all, kindness to every living creature), the people are just as friendly and welcoming. Not all Sikhs wear turban.

Their main temple is the Golden Temple, which was built on land provided by the Mughal emperor, Akbar who himself, a Muslim, was a huge believer in Sufism, as were some of his descendents, including grand son Shah Jehan who built the Taj Mahal. Akbar admired Sikhism for what it stood. And speaking of Akbar, his reign is also marked as one of progressivism, where he pushed for secularism and a progressive society in general, something unheard of, in the 16th century. There is a pretty good coverage of this in a BBC documentary: The Story of India. I saw it last week (online) so it should still be available somewhere.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2010, 10:13 AM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,258,795 times
Reputation: 10021
Quote:
Indians and Hindus were extremely upset but unlike Musllms, they didn't respond with terrorism. You didn't see Hindus going to Pakistan the next week and blowing up a famous structure in Islamabad.
I don't endorse the widespread Muslim bashing on this forum from the wingnuts but I think the world was impressed with the patience the Indians and Hindus showed during that incident. The world was terrified India was going to react in kind because they are a nuclear power. Based on that incident, I don't see how anyone can compare Hindus to Muslims. If they were like Muslims, they would have done something bad to Pakistan. That incident proves Hindus are civil and not extremists.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2010, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,032 posts, read 24,589,694 times
Reputation: 20165
Quote:
Originally Posted by zox View Post
Obviously, if you do a google search, you can come up with anything but that is hardly the norm. This response is so ridiculous, I don't know where to start.

First of all, Hinduism is a philosophy and not a strict religion. It's not based on any lineage to Abraham so there is no conflict with Christianity and Judaism like Islam. Hinduism does not advocate the conversion of anyone. Go to any Hindu temple and no one will bar a Christian or a non-Hindu from entering. If you don't believe me, test it yourself. Find a Hindu temple in your area and walk in; no one will tell you "You are not allowed in here or are not allowed to observe services."In fact, there is really no such thing as conversion in Hinduism, there is no ritual for it even. Hindus believe Jesus Christ was the son of God and another avatar of Vishnu so there is no reason for anyone to covert to Hinduism. This is why Hindus love and embraced Mother Theresa and why she spent her life in Calcutta. This is why in India, there are Catholic churches and Christian schools everywhere. Many Hindu children attend Catholic schools.

Second, Christians have settled in Indian for centuries. So Indians have been living with Christians for a long time. And unlike the Arabic countries, there was no widespread movement to kick out the Christians in the 1950's and 1960's. There are a lot of Christians still living in India unlike the Arabic countries and Iran.

I agree most Muslims are peaceful however don't compare Hindus to Muslims with regard to extremism. Muslims dominate that category. I don't recall Hindus blowing up buildings or having suicide bombers. Even when Pakastanis committed violence against India and set the famous Taj Hotel in Bombay on fire, India did not react with violence so don't even attempt to compare the two.
I think you took this post the wrong way. I was trying to show a poster that extremism does exist in all faiths, philosophies and ideologisms.

As I pointed out quite clearly the very vast majority of Hindus ( and other religions /Atheists) are peaceful, law abiding citizens.

I think you will find my sources to be pretty legitimate. I would not call the BBC or the Independent newspaper agitators of any kind.

This post was not to point out the finger at Hindus but to show that fundamentalism ( which does lead to deaths and murders ) exist even in what I consider to be generally one of the most peaceful of philosophies. I have been to India ( and Pakistan and Bangladesh) many times , have many Indian friends so I am hardly being racist or anti-Hindu.

But Hindu Nationalism and extremism is on the rise. You can deny it all you like but it is true nonetheless. With lethal consequences for many people.

I personally am afraid of any kind of extremism but also recognise that it is usually a very vocal minority which gives an entire socio-cultural group a bad name.

We cannot ignore certain facts because they do not fit our idea of the truth. I have never met anything but kindness and hospitality in India ( the same goes for Pakistan and Bangladesh) and these links in my post were not to tar an entire group of people with a brush of lunatic madmen. That is certainly not my view and I am sorry if you took it as such.

Hindu fundamentalism has been of late not only on the rise but also increasingly violent and vocal. Minority it remains but it is becoming increasingly worrying even to the Indian authorities.

I am prefectly aware of Christian history in India and also of the largely peaceful co-existence of both groups. But to deny that serious attacks have happened on Christian groups ( and many more threats for violence to come) is simply to deny facts.

And I also do understand Hindu faith being more a philosophy than a religion. As I said I have quite a few Indian friends ( Hindu and Sikhs - Sikh fundamentalism is BTW also on the rise- that from the mouth of my own friend , himself a moderate).

Once again as I said people have high-jacked certain tennets and twisted them for their own political agenda ( In the case of the BJP political power and causing as much friction with the minority Muslims in India being one under the guise of ultra nationalist precepts).

I abhor ALL violence be it from Muslim nutters , Christian nutters or any nutters for that matter. To deny certainf acts though is intellectually disingenuous.


As fas I am concerned murder is murder. rape is rape, violence is violence whichever quarters it originates from. Hindu fundamentalism is no less dangerous because it has so far been more contained. In fact ignoring it as a fact is simply allowing it to grow unchecked which does not sound like a great idea.

I am sorry you were offended by my post but I am sick and tired of Muslims being constantly portrayed as the only people with a monopoly on extremist violence. As someone who has travelled all over the world I can honestly say that the vast majority of Muslims I have ever met ( a lot of them as I travelled extensively throughout the Middle East and Malaysia) have been just as nice, normal as anyone else. Some bastards have taken certain tennets of the Muslim faith and twisted them to their own aim , for their own personal agenda. Agreed.


As far as I am concerned those responsible for any terrorist atrocities can be thrown to the pigs for all I care.


I was in London when 7/7 happened so don't you dare lecture me on terrorism and Islam. I avoided being blown up in Paris by about 5 minutes in the Jewish Quarter in 1982 after visiting some Jewish friends.... I know enough ot know that Muslim terrorists are cowards and bastards .



But please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that I have somehow searched the internet for some made up facts to throw mud at Indian people. These facts have been discussed quite openly for a few years on enough intelligent current affairs programmes and respectable news-source not to be merely disregarded as being ridiculous.


I think if you read most of my posts you will realise that I have no hidden agenda, am not somehow racist or muslim biased. I myself am an Atheist so to be honest all faiths to me are a little bizarre. I respect people's right to worship as long as it does not harm others. I also respect all philosophies if they too are harmless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2010, 10:22 AM
zox zox started this thread
 
344 posts, read 477,954 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mooseketeer View Post
I think you took this post the wrong way. I was trying to show a poster that extremism does exist in all faiths, philosophies and ideologisms.

As I pointed out quite clearly the very vast majority of Hindus ( and other religions /Atheists) are peaceful, law abiding citizens.

I think you will find my sources to be pretty legitimate. I would not call the BBC or the Independent newspaper agitators of any kind.

This post was not to point out the finger at Hindus but to show that fundamentalism ( which does lead to deaths and murders ) exist even in what I consider to be generally one of the most peaceful of philosophies. I have been to India ( and Pakistan and Bangladesh) many times , have many Indian friends so I am hardly being racist or anti-Hindu.

But Hindu Nationalism and extremism is on the rise. You can deny it all you like but it is true nonetheless. With lethal consequences for many people.

I personally am afraid of any kind of extremism but also recognise that it is usually a very vocal minority which gives an entire socio-cultural group a bad name.

We cannot ignroe certain facts because they do not fit our idea of the truth. I have never met anything but kindness and hospitality in India ( the same goes for Pakistan and Bangladesh) and these links in my post were not to tar an entire group of people with a brush of lunatic madmen. That is certainly not my view and I am sorry if you took it as such.

Hindu fundamentalism has been of late not only on the rise but also increasingly violent and vocal. Minority it remains but it is becoming increasingly worrying even to the Indian authorities.

I am prefectly aware of Christian history in India and also of the largely peaceful co-existence of both groups. But to deny that serious attacks have happened on Christian groups ( and many more threats for violence to come) is simply to deny facts.

And I also do understand Hindu faith being more a philosophy than a religion. As I said I have quite a few Indian friends ( Hindu and Sikhs - Sikh fundamentalism is BTW also on the rise- that from the mouth of my own friend , himself a moderate).

Once again as I said people have high-jacked certain tennets and twisted them for their own political agenda ( In the case of the BJP political power and causing as much friction with the minority Muslims in India being one under the guise of ultra nationalist precepts).

I abhor ALL violence be it from Muslim nutters , Christian nutters or any nutters for that matter. To deny certainf acts though is intellectually disingenuous.


As fas I am concerned murder is murder. rape is rape, violence is violence whichever quarters it originates from. Hindu fundamentalism is no less dangerous because it has so far been more contained. In fact ignoring it as a fact is simply allowing it to grow unchecked which does not sound like a great idea.

I am sorry you were offended by my post but I am sick and tired of Muslims being constantly portrayed as the only people with a monopoly on extremist violence. As someone who has travelled all over the world I can honestly say that the vast majority of Muslims I have ever met ( a lot of them as I travelled extensively throughout the Middle East and Malaysia) have been just as nice, normal as anyone else. Some bastards have taken certain tennets of the Muslim faith and twisted them to their own aim , for their own personal agenda. Agreed.


As far as I am concerned those responsible for any terrorist atrocities can be thrown to the pigs for all I care.


I was in London when 7/7 happened so don't you dare lecture me on terrorism and Islam. I avoided being blown up in Paris by about 5 minutes in the Jewish Quarter in 1982 after visiting some Jewish friends.... I know enough ot know that Muslim terrorists are cowards and bastards of the lowest kind there is.



But please do not insult my intelligence and tell me that I have somehow searched the internet for some made up facts to throw mud at Indian people. These facts have been discussed quite openly for a few years on enough intelligent current affairs programmes and respectable news-source not to be merely disregarded as being ridiculous.


I think if you read most of my posts you will realise that I have no hidden agenda, am not somehow racist or muslim biased. I myself am an Atheist so to be honest all faiths to me are a little bizarre. I respect people's right to worship as long as it does not harm others. I also respect all philosophies if they too are harmless.
I'm not disputing your facts but I do dispute the conclusion and implication based on those facts. Yes, there are isolated incidents but you are being highly inaccurate trying to equate Islamic extremism with Hindu extremism based on those facts. The comparisons are not even close. Islamic extremism is far more prevalent and I think even you know that. Also, India's decision to not respond in kind to the terrorist acts committed in Bombay last year shows that Hindus have a lot more patience than Muslims. If Hindus had committed a similar act in Pakistan, you can be certain, there would be an Islamic response. Furthermore, the number of Islamic terrorism committed against Hindus and India far outweigh the number that has been committed against Pakistan. You asked that I don't insult your intelligence, likewise, don't insult my intelligence by trying to equate Hindu extremism with Islamic extremism, it's not even close.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2010, 10:27 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by zox View Post
Hinduism is not even a religion but a philosophy. Hindus see everyone as a Hindu regardless of who they pray to. God is universal and different faiths are just different manifestations of the same God. However, if a Christian wanted to call themselves a Hindu and attend a Hindu service on a regular basis, they can easily do so. There are no rules to becoming a Hindu like there are to become a Jew, Muslim or Mormon for example. You don't have to satisfy a ritual, have a sponsor or marry someone or anything like that. You just show up. It's pretty similar to most Christian churches. If you want to become a Christian, you just show up to church and accept Jesus Christ and you are good to go.
That is one way of looking at it, but there are many Hindus would not agree with your take. For instance they don't consider Muslims or Christians Hindus. And some think it is impossible for outsiders to convert to Hinduism, just like they consider it impossible to cease to be a Hindu.
Since there is not central Hindu figure to decide, nobody can tell which view is right.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2010, 10:32 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by zox View Post
First of all, Hinduism is a philosophy and not a strict religion. It's not based on any lineage to Abraham so there is no conflict with Christianity and Judaism like Islam. Hinduism does not advocate the conversion of anyone...
The conflict between Christianity, Judaism and Islam have virtually nothing to do with a common lineage, but with politics and the struggle for power. Not unlike the politics played by the right wing party in India to gain majority support of the Hindus (80% of India's population). Their push against Muslims (the largest minority in India, about 12% and Christians (about 3%) is not representative of the religion itself, but like any extremist group, it polarizes people based on religion.

And one of the reasons Christians are targeted by radical Hindus has to do with missionaries converting Hindus to Christianity, often in tribal areas.

Quote:
Second, Christians have settled in Indian for centuries. So Indians have been living with Christians for a long time. And unlike the Arabic countries, there was no widespread movement to kick out the Christians in the 1950's and 1960's. There are a lot of Christians still living in India unlike the Arabic countries and Iran.
That is mostly a correct statement. Be it Iran, Israel or any country like that, there is little to no tolerance based on religion or ethnicity/race. This is not true in India. In fact, Christianity in India goes back farther than it does in Europe. India's tolerance and acceptance to diversity has been second to none (the right wing there is not that powerful yet... although they were behind assassination of Mahatma Gandhi since they saw him as a Muslim sympathizer). It was, perhaps, also a major reason Jews traveled that far, looking for shelter against Roman persecution. I think India is unique in that regard, and this quality shines through in virtually everything Indian.

Quote:
I agree most Muslims are peaceful however don't compare Hindus to Muslims with regard to extremism. Muslims dominate that category.
Again, I suspect you say this as a Hindu. Do you not accept that there are Hindu radicals who balance things out? Trust me, there are. And yes, google is a pretty good way to learn it.

Quote:
I don't recall Hindus blowing up buildings or having suicide bombers. Even when Pakastanis committed violence against India and set the famous Taj Hotel in Bombay on fire, India did not react with violence so don't even attempt to compare the two.
And herein lies the problem. You, yourself, associate Muslims with Pakistan, when you should be talking about this as an issue between two countries, not two religions. By doing so, you are walking the steps radicals from any other religion do, including Muslims. To begin with, "Taj" is an Arabic/Urdu word for "crown".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2010, 10:32 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
Reputation: 9728
One of the reasons for the extremism against Muslims is that many lower-caste Hindus have converted to Islam which is considered a kind of treason by some Hindu hardliners who think lower castes should stay lower castes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2010, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,767,183 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
One of the reasons for the extremism against Muslims is that many lower-caste Hindus have converted to Islam which is considered a kind of treason by some Hindu hardliners who think lower castes should stay lower castes.
That and an extreme view that any action by a different country (Pakistan) should be viewed against all Muslims. This doesn't speak very highly of the tolerance claimed by the OP. I've debated the topic of Hindu extremism at length with someone, a Hindu fanatic, who absolutely detests Gandhi and claimed to be a part of an organization called RSS (connected with Gandhi's assassination).

Violence against Christian missionaries, non-missionaries and churches by Hindu extremists has become more pronounced lately. It is an easy way for many regional and national politicians to garner easy votes. The British took advantage of, what is known as "divide and rule" (creating issues between Muslims and Hindus), and the politicians today in the democratic republic India do the same to hold on to the seat and win elections.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:36 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top