Does Israel have a right to exist and if so how? (enemy, borders)
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See, here's the problem: Israel is a sovereign nation. For this reason, we don't really have the right to judge her. Suppose someone in another nation judged the United States for our 19th century policy of Manifest Destiny. That was nothing more than an excuse to take over land we as a nation decided that we wanted. A land grab, in other words. And it wasn't uninhabited land, either. How many Native American tribes did we displace, if not exterminate? (But it was OK, because it was our "manifest destiny." Right?)
The problem with a lot of people posting here is that they're using Israel as a veil to disguise what they really mean to say: Jews.
Here we go with the "criticism of Israel is really just anti-Semitism," comments. I have plenty of American Jewish friends who are as critical of Israel's policies as a goyim like myself. Or look up the group J-Street. So would all these just be considered to be self-hating Jews?
Does Israel have a right to exist--sure they're a sovereign nation--they got the better half of the partition and won 3 wars against their neighbors. Do they have a right to continue to colonize the West Bank and furthermore deprive the Palestinian Arabs any chance at self-determination--sure, they can, if they want to risk another 60 years of bloodshed.
I do think a small portion of the issue is either antisemitism or Jewish sympathizing. I'm a sympathizer. I can't think of a status of people who have been more put upon by so many people for such a long period of time. I know it effects my judgement when considering this issue. However, I think the biggest problem is that people believe we can unring the bell of our colonial interference by giving up Israel at this late date. I think that it is incredibly naive to believe this.
The issues between the U.S. and the Middle East have gone way, way beyond Israel. I also think giving up Israel now would hurt far more than it would help. The act would make America look like a nation of cowards. It would be strong evidence to the Jihadists that we have no backbone at all and can be easily pushed around. Surrendering Israel will make our situation with the Jihadist profoundly worse, not better.
you really should look at the issue from a neutral standpoint otherwise you will always be biased by emotion rather than fact.
I endeavor. Everyone has bias. Everyone. Being aware of your own bias helps you find neutrality. Thinking you have no bias makes you a fool.
well sure but you put them aside if you want to be fair. just like they ask you to do when you serve on a jury. if you can't put it aside you excuse yourself.
well sure but you put them aside if you want to be fair. just like they ask you to do when you serve on a jury. if you can't put it aside you excuse yourself.
Have you ever served on a jury? I have. It proved to me that my ability to temper my biases far out stretches the ability of the average human being. It also showed me a good portion of the public are fools, completely unaware of their bias. In fact, serving on a jury changed my opinion of capital punishment, but that's another thread.
Have you ever served on a jury? I have. It proved to me that my ability to temper my biases far out stretches the ability of the average human being. It also showed me a good portion of the public are fools, completely unaware of their bias. In fact, serving on a jury changed my opinion of capital punishment, but that's another thread.
Did deliberation scare the crap out of you? It did me.
no, but I found it to be a very sobering and somber experience. I gave this man every benefit of the doubt possible. I absolutely presumed him innocent. he was however, in the end guilty as charged. in hawaii attempted murder carries the same punishment as murder. none of us took it lightly.
as with the situation in the middle east. I try to throw out "feelings" as they are biased based on emotion. I do my best to go with the facts presented by all sides before coming to a conclusion. this situation is so complex and forever changing that it really does seem like it might not ever be solved.
no, but I found it to be a very sobering and somber experience. I gave this man every benefit of the doubt possible. I absolutely presumed him innocent. he was however, in the end guilty as charged. in hawaii attempted murder carries the same punishment as murder. none of us took it lightly.
as with the situation in the middle east. I try to throw out "feelings" as they are biased based on emotion. I do my best to go with the facts presented by all sides before coming to a conclusion. this situation is so complex and forever changing that it really does seem like it might not ever be solved.
That is the very reason I started this thread, to challenge my beliefs, to update myself on the facts, to revisit old arguments I may have too hastily dismissed. I think even after you reach a conclusion you should still revisit and challenge yourself. There may be new information, you may have changed some fundamental belief that makes you look at old information differently. The only thing worse than being wrong is staying wrong.
That is the very reason I started this thread, to challenge my beliefs, to update myself on the facts, to revisit old arguments I may have too hastily dismissed. I think even after you reach a conclusion you should still revisit and challenge yourself. There may be new information, you may have changed some fundamental belief that makes you look at old information differently. The only thing worse than being wrong is staying wrong.
lol you get a rep for that one
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