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Ya know with each new political party it is hard to read between the lines especially with the level of corruption that has tainted the system over the years. I would like to think we are in Afghanistan to find terrorists and to stabilize the government, but how can we realistically change the religious mindset? Muslim beliefs do not coincide well with democratic beliefs, especially when those democratic beliefs appear to be tainted by capitalism.
I do believe the war in Afghanistan was bound to happen prior to 9/11, but was it because we needed to track down terrorists and build a democracy for humanitarian efforts? or because we saw capital opportunity hanging in the wind and wanted to go in under the guise of terrorism/democracy?
Like you said these people tend to have a good memory, why did the U.S. pull out and leave the country in a civil war?
Well those folks who work in places like Pentagon planning, national security, etc... are often people who have far longer lifespans than Presidential administrations. In the case of Wolfowitz, he was seen as an intellectual wise man with a fundamentalist fervor and level of commitment to the ideological cause that America should exert its new found dominance over the entire globe. Now he has been around since his days with Henry Jackson and worked within foreign policy circles since the Nixon administration.
Outside of the resources of the Middle East, it is a strategic patch of dirt that sits between Europe, Asia, Africa, and Russia, and some of those ideologues who progressed the idea that with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US should assume a role of sole global empire and they even stated exactly this publicly. Since the US remained and the Soviets fell, it was assumed that Afghanistan had been beat up by the Soviets and a civil war and would be weak, as was expected in Iraq after its long war with Iran, Desert Storm, and 10 years of sanctions. As it was so succinctly put, "It will be a cakewalk".
Truth is, they way over estimated the US ability to project its power and influence on multiple fronts and in multiple theaters of conflict. Only this wasn't realized until we were neck deep in it, despite those minority of voices who warned it would turn out exactly as it has.
Well those folks who work in places like Pentagon planning, national security, etc... are often people who have far longer lifespans than Presidential administrations. In the case of Wolfowitz, he was seen as an intellectual wise man with a fundamentalist fervor and level of commitment to the ideological cause that America should exert its new found dominance over the entire globe. Now he has been around since his days with Henry Jackson and worked within foreign policy circles since the Nixon administration.
Outside of the resources of the Middle East, it is a strategic patch of dirt that sits between Europe, Asia, Africa, and Russia, and some of those ideologues who progressed the idea that with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US should assume a role of sole global empire and they even stated exactly this publicly. Since the US remained and the Soviets fell, it was assumed that Afghanistan had been beat up by the Soviets and a civil war and would be weak, as was expected in Iraq after its long war with Iran, Desert Storm, and 10 years of sanctions. As it was so succinctly put, "It will be a cakewalk".
Truth is, they way over estimated the US ability to project its power and influence on multiple fronts and in multiple theaters of conflict. Only this wasn't realized until we were neck deep in it, despite those minority of voices who warned it would turn out exactly as it has.
I realize there are people in the DOD that have longevity. Wolfowitz is a brilliant man and has always appeared to be in the countries interest. I realize much of the Bush Doctrine was in actuality his thoughts. It is the sour taste of corruption from the likes of Halliburton and Enron (among other things) that make me a skeptic.
Can there be a Religious Democracy in the middle east? We better pray! LOL
I realize there are people in the DOD that have longevity. Wolfowitz is a brilliant man and has always appeared to be in the countries interest. I realize much of the Bush Doctrine was in actuality his thoughts. It is the sour taste of corruption from the likes of Halliburton and Enron (among other things) that make me a skeptic.
Can there be a Religious Democracy in the middle east? We better pray! LOL
Well of course there are Muslim democracies in the Middle East, Lebanon, Iran both and before the US helped install a dictator in 1953, and the most overlooked one, Turkey. Are they democracies that would compare to the likes of the US or most European states, probably not, but democracies they are none the less.
What Paul Wolfowitz and like minded people represented was far more than the sum of their parts. Wolfowitz in many respects is a pretty brilliant fella, but as to whether or not he had the best interest of the nation is debatable. One can certainly argue that in our current state of being occupiers of two nations, engaging in military incursions into two others, Pakistan and Yemen, has spread the American military apparatus quite thin, or even vulnerable if we were attacked by a major power. Not to mention the economic strains our foreign policy presents to the general health of the nation, and all of this based upon the premise that the United States is somehow ordained to shape the Middle East into a collection of states that better coincide with our desires.
If we are to assume that the US went to Afghanistan or remains due to the wealth of natural resources, then it would have to be a nation covered with golden nuggets the size of Volkswagens to make up for the costs in money and human lives we have and will continue to spend.
In some respects I wish we did go to Afghanistan for wealth or revenge, it would be far more tolerable than going there for the Neoconservative ideology.
Minimize the influence of Al Qaeda. Had 9/11 never happened, we never would have been doing this operation in Afghanistan.
As far as goals go, getting Osama would be a great outcome, but at the minimum you want to ensure that a sufficiently stong government and military exist to minimize the influence of Al Qaeda.
Minimize the influence of Al Qaeda. Had 9/11 never happened, we never would have been doing this operation in Afghanistan.
As far as goals go, getting Osama would be a great outcome, but at the minimum you want to ensure that a sufficiently stong government and military exist to minimize the influence of Al Qaeda.
And yet we have forgotten when the Taliban offered to hand over Bin Laden.
Quote:
as illustrated by the fact that when the Bush administration had an opportunity to take bin Laden alive, it showed no interest. A week after 9/11, the Taliban said that it would hand OBL over---if the United States presented proof of his involvement in 9/11. But Bush refused to provide any such evidence, saying that there would be no negotiations or even discussion.101
When the Bush administration came to power, however, it decided to give the Taliban one last chance. This last chance occurred at a four-day meeting in Berlin in July 2001. Representatives of the Bush-Cheney administration, trying to persuade the Taliban to share power with US-friendly factions in a “unity government,” reportedly gave the Taliban an ultimatum: “Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.”113
113. Julio Godoy, “U.S. Taliban Policy Influenced by Oil,” Inter Press Service, November 16, 2001.
I agree with Bush not getting into negotiations with the Taliban over bin Laden, that turns into a "tar baby".
If 9/11 hadn't happened, we wouldn't have our significant troop involvement in Afghanistan today.
That "tar baby" may end up being the same tar baby we end up with as both Bush and Obama have entertained negotiating with the Taliban. So after the longest war in American history, billions upon billions of dollars spent, thousands of US soldiers lives, we may very well end up negotiating with the Taliban.
Do you think its worth it?
Do you think the statements made in the following meant that the US would only bomb Afghanistan and wouldn't commit to putting boots on the ground?
Quote:
When the Bush administration came to power, however, it decided to give the Taliban one last chance. This last chance occurred at a four-day meeting in Berlin in July 2001. Representatives of the Bush-Cheney administration, trying to persuade the Taliban to share power with US-friendly factions in a “unity government,” reportedly gave the Taliban an ultimatum: “Either you accept our offer of a carpet of gold, or we bury you under a carpet of bombs.”113 When the Taliban refused, the Americans reportedly said that “military action against Afghanistan would go ahead . . . before the snows started falling in Afghanistan, by the middle of October at the latest.”114
113. Julio Godoy, “U.S. Taliban Policy Influenced by Oil,” Inter Press Service, November 16, 2001.
114. This according to Niaz Naik, the highly respected Pakistani representative at the meeting, as reported in George Arney, “U.S. ‘Planned Attack on Taleban,’” BBC News, Sept. 18, 2001. In a story in the Guardian entitled “Threat of U.S. Strikes Passed to Taliban Weeks Before NY Attack” (September 22, 2001), one of the American representatives was quoted as confirming that this discussion of military action did occur.
IF that was stated, I'd see it as part of the exchanges that happen during intense foreign debates during that time frame. I'd also want to see context, and what was stated by the other side. In addition, I'd want to see the comments made in our discussions with other difficult foreign areas, and how those subsequently played out.
So no, I don't see it as an inevitable "boots on the ground" commitment at all.
I stand by my comment, had 9/11 not happened you wouldn't see our extensive military involvement in Afghanistan today.
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