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View Poll Results: Do you agree with comparing President Obama to Adolf Hitler?
Yes 23 24.73%
No 68 73.12%
Not sure 2 2.15%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-15-2010, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Zürich, Schweiz
338 posts, read 292,622 times
Reputation: 187

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Thank you for your reply, I will first comment on the selected articles, and then try to illuminate the historical background:

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts
This was in answer to monopolizing trusts which fixed prices (mostly food, building materials etc.) after WWI.

While not anticapitalistic (monopolies are generally not allowed), one could argue that it had an 'nationalization'-tint. I think one has to consider that this sentence meant something else then than it does now. But that is open for discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries
This one is closely related to #13, as it concerns large corporations who mostly grossly abused their powers to generate monopolies and fix prices. Obviously, it sounds like nationalization, but I have the same doubts as above. But, again, open for discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities
I give you that one, there are socialist tendencies here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land
Sounds harsh, but is connected to #13 and #14 and concerns the fixing of food prices by trusts and large industries (who bought enormous stretches of agrarian land during WWI). It furthermore is in agreement with the "Blut und Boden" (blood and ground) ideology of the NSDAP, which proclaimed the quasi-holiness of aryan ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations
This is business as usual in nearly every modern democracy, and was in answer to secessionist tendencies of various territories after WWI (Bavaria and others)

One could certainly argue that points 11-18 proclaimed some vague socialist tendencies. Hitler actually did, and negated them in 1928 with an amendment (see my previous post on this)


Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
well while it not in the 25 points, it does go back to the 1928 law and was reissued with the 1938 law
I agree. But note that the 1938 law was specifically meant as a determent to jews, communists, subjugated countries etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
4. Only those who are our fellow countrymen can become citizens. Only those who have German blood, regardless of creed, can be our countrymen. Hence no Jew can be a countryman.
As I said, no 'blaming', but proposed exclusion/harassment



Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood. If it should not be possible to feed the whole population, then aliens (non-citizens) must be expelled from the Reich
Actually, I think that there might be a slight but important flaw in the translation:

"Wir fordern, daß sich der Staat verpflichtet, in erster Linie für die Erwerbs- und Lebensmöglichkeit der Staatsbürger zu sorgen. Wenn es nicht möglich ist, die Gesamtbevölkerung des Staates zu ernähren, so sind die Angehörigen fremder Nationen (Nicht-Staatsbürger) aus dem Reiche auszuweisen."

"In erster Linie", used as it is here, means that the State shall primarily look after the well-being of its citizens, and not the non-citizens. If funds or means are insufficient, non-citizens should be expelled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.
Vaguely socialist. Seems to be a propaganda instrument, as the percentage of older people was disproportionally high after WWI (young people died in the war)

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities
Same as above. One could add that the creation of a middle-class is decidedly anti-socialist/anti-class-warfare.


Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
Further, a Nazi decree of October 19, 1941 established abortion on demand as the official policy of Poland. Hitler, however, expressed dissatisfaction with this policy. Abortion, he believed, should NOT be limited to Poland. He therefore ordered that abortion be expanded to all populations under the control of the "Ministry of the Occupied Territories of the East."

On July 22, 1942, the Fuhrer exhibited a highly positive attitude towards abortion as an indispensable method of dealing with the non-German populations in countries under Nazi control. "In view of the large families of the native populations," he asserted, "it could only suit us if girls and women there had as many abortions as possible." Hitler also personally announced that he "would personally shoot" any "such idiot" who "tried to put into practice such an order (forbidding abortion) in the occupied Eastern territories
Abortion as an instrument of control over subjugated people and persons not considered "Aryans" was indeed a policy of the Nazis. But it seems to be out of place in a discussion about the similarities of Hitler and Obama, as it wasn't Obama who allowed abortions in the US.



Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
In Nazi Germany, for instance, abstinence from tobacco was a "national socialist duty" [...]
Didn't know that fact, interesting! Thanks for the information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
I would never compare the dictatorship or inhuman or evilness of hitler to obama or the liberals...but to compare a national socialist agenda to the liberals is at least in the ballpark
This is certainly a claim you can make.

However, I think you need to take into account that the 25-Punkte-Programm stems from 1920, when there still were members with socialist tendencies in the NSDAP. After an internal struggle for power, which Hitler won (1926), he rescinded on the points with vague socialist tendencies (1928), and adapted decisively pro-industry, pro-corporation and pro-private-property policies.

As to the alleged similarities between Nazi-ideology and liberal ideology:

pro-choice: the difference lies in the intended implications. Nazi: de-individualization, control of masses. Liberal: individualization, rights of property on own body.

anti-tobacco: don't know enough about the Nazi's side to comment on this. Besides, I'm a smoker.

pro-gun-control: Nazi: control of masses, decrease in defensive abilities and safety in targeted factions. Liberal: decrease in violence, increase in safety for whole population.

I know that these last points are debatable, but there are enough threads for this on this forum.

I hope that covers most points, if not, or if you don't agree, let me know.
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Old 07-15-2010, 10:38 AM
 
25,626 posts, read 33,608,998 times
Reputation: 23191
Just as stupid as comparing Bush to Hitler. I vigorously disagree most of Obama's policies and a lot of GW's but they are not Hitler material.
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Old 07-15-2010, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Texas
38,870 posts, read 22,807,023 times
Reputation: 24780
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
Ahhh.................... there we have it. The refuge of the liberal is to label everyone who does not embrace the insanity of liberalism as "ignorant", "stupid", or a "racist".

Again, I believe that reflexive response is on page 47 of the liberal playbook (written by Lenin and Bill Ayers).

"When confronted with uncomfortable facts and information which point out the hypocrisy and lunacy of your core liberal beliefs, do not be confused by the facts. Despite the facts, your are right! Your response should be to shout "idiot" or "racist" and walk away from the debate. Such responses will show your firm command of the facts and your superior debating skills".
That was quite the hyperpartisan screed there, hawk. Sounds like you've been taking Malkin lessons.


Quote:
Gringo-

I have over a thousand books on WW2 and have read the history of the Third Reich as well as that of Stalin quite extensively. Given your cursory knowledge of these characters and the fact that you embrace a modern version of them, it is not inconcievable that these parallels are not apparent to you. Read a little more about Hitler and Stalinism and perhaps your eyes will be opened. However, I am not holding my breath, as it is easier to do nothinig, walk away, and shout "idiot" or "racist", just as the liberal handbook commands.
If you actually read the books you claim to, the only way your statements make any sense at all is if you've:

a) totally forgotten their content

-or-

b) are just making silly statements because you're bored and are trying to troll for some angry responses

I can't tell from here.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:14 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,387 posts, read 8,883,651 times
Reputation: 4070
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphamale View Post
How's this....

He spent (printed or borrowed) more money than all other Presidents before him combined.
Please explain the negative effect on you.

I will agree that the economic crisis left by the irresponsible policies of the Bush/Cheney years made extreme measures necessary to avoid a second Great Depression. Just think of how much better off America (and the world) would be if those bozos (Bush/Cheney) hadn't recklessly deregulated Wall St and let them loot the financial markets. And then alllow them to get away with it.

Right now, the Republicans in the senate are trying their best to block legislation that would keep this from happening all over again.

Quote:
He has apologized for America in every country that he's visited and doesn't believe in American exceptionalism.
I keep hearing this fabrication from angry right wingers, yet there's no record of Obama apologizing to anyone, anywhere.

Quote:
How many people want to live "The Russian Dream", or "The Iranian Dream" or "The Indonesian Dream"?
Most Russians, Indonesians, and Iranians. Just a hunch.

Quote:
This affects America's standing in the world negatively and weakens us as a Nation.

Explain how that works, please.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:40 PM
 
26,684 posts, read 26,845,167 times
Reputation: 7931
It's clear that this tea party group wasted their money on the billboard. They've turned off more people with their hysterics than they've attracted to their movement.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Long Island
28,488 posts, read 16,388,882 times
Reputation: 7923
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoro View Post
I will agree that the economic crisis left by the irresponsible policies of the Bush/Cheney years made extreme measures necessary to avoid a second Great Depression. Just think of how much better off America (and the world) would be if those bozos (Bush/Cheney) hadn't recklessly deregulated Wall St and let them loot the financial markets. And then alllow them to get away with it.




.
UHM THE DEREGULATION CAME UNDER CLINTON not bush
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Old 07-15-2010, 04:28 PM
 
Location: New Mexico
8,387 posts, read 8,883,651 times
Reputation: 4070
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
UHM THE DEREGULATION CAME UNDER CLINTON not bush

The deregulation was the work of the GOP congress, not Clinton. He didn't veto it. In hindsight, we'd all be much better off today if he had.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,422 posts, read 9,753,678 times
Reputation: 7781
If the shoe fits...wear it Cinderella .
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,377 posts, read 111,557,246 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pretzelogik View Post
If the shoe fits...wear it Cinderella .
I think I'm going to turn into a pumpkin!
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:20 PM
 
382 posts, read 275,095 times
Reputation: 88
Big difference between Hitler and Obama: Hitler turned his country around and became a world power, Obama is trying to destroy the U.S and doing a good job of it.
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