How do we cure black underachievement? (top 10, claims, vote, percent)
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a school being poor is the killer of education. when a community is poor, black, white, whatever you get less funding, teachers are paid less and the students lose. positive self esteem is what will make smart, cool
This is complete and utter BS, kids in the poorest slum neighborhood in Mumbai are able to get educated, because they take education serious. The blacks in America don't care about education, that is why they are in such shambles. More funding doesn't make people smart, genetics and hard work do. This country spends billions in education every year, but it just a waste, because atleast half of blacks don't care about learning, school is a place to hangout, play sports, and chase girls/boys. I like to take some of you liberals and drop you in a black ghetto school for a few weeks. There are so many dirt poor kids across the world that barely get any funding when it comes to education working their little arses off and succeeding, so don't give me your black sob stories, because they are bunk. If half starving kids in India and China can do it, why can't black Americans who live much much better?
the problem with the schools is not really one of money, yes some schools are underfunded, but when you allow teachers to actually teach students, and not bog them down with stupid programs, then you will see the quality of education rise again. back when i went to school, my teaches were always trying to motivate us to think for ourselves. they were always trying to teach us how to think, not what to think. all the top notch equipment in the world will not make for top notch students if the teachers suck or the programs the teachers are forced to teach suck.
we didnt have to deal with things like "heather has two mommies" or other crap like that. we also had a real grading system, and the schools sent out failure and near failure notices to the parents. we didnt have crap like;
teacher: johnny how much is 2+2?
johnny: 5
teacher: that is a nice try johnny, keep working on it and you will find the right answer in time.
in my day it was:
teacher: johnny how much is 2+2?
johnny: 5
teacher: sorry johnny, wrong answer. anyone have the right answer?
a school making children aware of the social fabric of their everyday life is admirable. children need to learn how to get along in the world. public school teaches to the average. the bright and the slow are the true loser.
as to your examples I prefer the first, where you continue to work with johnny until he gets the answer and not just pass him by as the second scenario seems to suggest
I appreciate your civil tone. I mostly agree. But I'm not sure there's enough money in America to do it. And many people aren't going to accept raising the taxes necessary to do it.
Because---->making sure the money gets all the way down to the teachers (to decrease class size by hiring more of them, not paying existing teachers more, and also building more / better classrooms) is ridiculously complicated, extremely expensive and nearly impossible.
Because---> It's just expensive! Also, the corruption at the head of many school districts.
You have no idea (or maybe you do) the number of meetings teachers have to go to to learn new (mostly useless)techniques from over paid 'educational professionals' many of whom have never even taught in a classroom!
But--> a system that makes sure teachers are actually doing their jobs and not babysitting is needed. I think it just needs to be monitored better somehow.
5 out of 6 members of my nuclear family are or were employed somewhere in the education field. I got to hear all the b.s. daily as they 'dished' to each other on the way home.
All of that is one side of the issue.
You still can't force someone to excel at school against their will. If there is a cultural resistance against seeming smart then you're working against that as well! And as any teacher will tell you...if the parents don't also work with the kid then it's pointless. Teachers only have them for so many hours a day! If they go home and witness God knows what with their parents or are sat in front of a television set for 5 hours then your job is really just to protect them from that and hope they get a minimal education and hopefully graduate high school! Forget about college!
you bring up all excellent points. no taxpayers do not want to fund schools. there are parents who could careless and teachers who do nothing but babysit. this is not a black or white thing it is the state of our schools, teachers, parents and children.
we still do however have teachers who teach, parents who care and kids that want to learn in all communities. perhaps the churches and other social groups could do more tutoring and have more after school programs
This is complete and utter BS, kids in the poorest slum neighborhood in Mumbai are able to get educated, because they take education serious. The blacks in America don't care about education, that is why they are in such shambles. More funding doesn't make people smart, genetics and hard work do. This country spends billions in education every year, but it just a waste, because atleast half of blacks don't care about learning, school is a place to hangout, play sports, and chase girls/boys. I like to take some of you liberals and drop you in a black ghetto school for a few weeks. There are so many dirt poor kids across the world that barely get any funding when it comes to education working their little arses off and succeeding, so don't give me your black sob stories, because they are bunk. If half starving kids in India and China can do it, why can't black Americans who live much much better?
you have a link about how well slum children are doing in school in mumbai? I hear most poor children living in the slums and streets of mumbai do not go to school at all. a blanket statement saying blacks don't care about education is bigoted misdirection of the truth. more funding does not make people smart, but it does buy books and computers, teachers aides, all of which goes to teach johnny. there will always be a percentage of lazy, unmotivated children. they come in all races. do you really think all the white children are learning, none cut class or go to school to get drugs and hang with their buddies? teen pregnancy is high across all racial lines. starving children in india ans china, what schools do they attend? your bias shows through your posting
However the question the OP pined was “How do we cure black underachievement? “. If we are going to have a conversion with the idea that this is not a blanket statement about an entire race, then this idea must be interjected into the question. I better question if this idea rings true would be How do we cure underachievement, or How do cure inner city poor underachievement. By leaving the original question unedited only opens the conversation towards the direction of blanket racial statements. Your stamen about “understanding” the OP’s original meaning or opinion does little to negate my standing.
But it does if you're willing to see it. The statistics are clear that more blacks are having a harder time raising themselves up and at times indicating a downward trend. There is materially less actual racism going on socially, in the media, in the court system, in every institution we've got- so how can it be explained that things get better and they get worse?
The question was framed so that reasons for blanket under achievement could be discussed, but the specific things about blacks and their experience really need that microscope put upon it. Comparing and contrasting why a germ is fatal to one person vs a cold to another is definitely relevant. Heart medication for a womans body is different than a mans because the difference in body chemistry became known as a factor. Why anyone turns that into an argument of superiority men over women or vice versa derailing logical analysis is a symptom of the diseased thought process in America that blacks also share.
I have seen many examples of successful blacks in my lifetime. There is no doubt in my mind that blacks have innate gifts and abilities bestowed them the same way any other human being does. The doubt is coming from inside them and it needs to be addressed. Is the computer inherently flawed if some bad code starts wrecking havoc? The bad code needs out. The bad code is self destructive behavior.
Actually many urban planners tie violence, lack of jobs, and the meltdown of the black inner city family to the white flight that began in the late forties. As more middle class families moved out of the cities jobs and small businesses left. Eventually many neighborhoods became dominated by a predominately black majorities with little hope for social progress. The inner city is the story of the automobile and the resultant rise of the suburbs. Saint Louis, and Detroit are great examples of this American phenomenon. This transfer of wealth was due to government action, but not the government action you speak of. This is the result of the lobbying efforts of the great automobile giants, and their need for roads. The roads were built and the people left, leaving many of our once proud inner city cores abandoned. This is not the fault of LBJ but Ozzie and Harriet’s.
Not entirely true-- see the entire rust belt, abandoned coal towns strewn about, dead gold rush town alaska, and dead standing up on their feet textile mills of the south. There's a cycle to an industry that doesn't find it's way to evolve. USA auto too fixated on battles of market share, they fell down on the war of evolving.
I have no idea of knowing how old you are but I'm going to assume you have no memories yourself of 50's & 60's to present tense. I'm going to relay a story from a chicago man of that ozzie and harriet era fleeing the region (not just one city). DO NOT SHOOT THE MESSENGER! I'll warn everyone right now this 3rd party narration is very ugly, but hearing all sides is important. It will also give you insight into why some whites responded to Obamas presidency over the top, why GOP continue to try to paint him Muslim, and the mental association Tea party has leaned on so heavily that Obama is militant when clearly his demeanor is not congruent.
This man deeply resented the chicago riots which stood as proof in his mind that blacks are innately "beligerent power wh*res" holding America hostage. There were riots in most cities in that era and it was always about blacks. He believes even to this day, because he's seen a long standing pattern, that any hand up given to black people will be bit off, spat upon, neglected and abused because their real mission is not to raise themselves up, but to deliver retribution for slavery until America is destroyed. In that context of history, can you hear Rev. Wright screaming god damned america? In the context of history where MLK was aiming for equality & justice, but nation of islam was (and continues to be) aiming for dominance. In a quest for vengeance black leadership has gone out of their way to aid and abet enemies of America. It will kill any black who fails out of line of the dominance mission.
Anything white about our culture, laws, language, customs-- all of it--- are publicly 'being sh*t on to rub it in everyones faces'. They disingenuously mouth the part as parody. The only interest a black man has in a white woman is to pimp her out, creating proof all white culture is corrupt. He cites the evidence of cabrini greens, a massive expenditure of good will effort, that became a cesspool and people regressed to animals. The mass exodus of whites according to him was about the concerted disrespect the blacks moving into a given neighborhood were dumping. Modest middle income Polish, German, Irish & Italian communities kept their own neighborhoods clean not only by refraining from littering, but taking initiative to sweep the streets themselves. Their children were disciplined in the same school of thinking. According to him blacks moved in, started picking fights, bottles are broken in the streets where their kids used to play. Their teen agers were being sold drugs by blacks. He cites specific behavior coming from them, not the monty python episode where a black dot moved in the neighborhood and everyone fainted. It was their confrontational posturing and their adamant refusal to lend a hand to support the community they all shared. His interpretation- it was 'beneath them' and 'let the white man be my n*gger for a change' attitude coming from them. The passive aggressive tensions only got worse. He said the longer they waited around for dust to settle, the worse things got in frequency and amplitude.
So, is he a racist? You could call him one now, but he didn't start out as one. He was made into one not by the klan, but by what he witnessed for nearly 70 odd yrs. and the abusive attitudes he experienced directly from the 'black community'. His experience was that if you were one on one, they know how to act one citizen to another, but the moment they get together with one another, respect & civilization goes out the door. The million man march was strategic intimidation of a % of this country who have direct memories. This element of blacks CREATING racism is something many white posters have been trying to get across in many threads of similar discussion, but the knee jerk racist accusations keep getting in the way. I'd swear sometimes that word has become a crutch worse than a crack pipe for too many blacks the past 40yrs.
It matters if the discrimination is the result of racism or bias.
If it's rooted in racism, it can lead to domination.
If it's rooted in bias, preconceived stereotypes and/or colorism, this is often the result of ignorance and can be corrected. There are a lot more biased people than racists, IMO, and I find that many skin color biased people are willing to open their minds and learn. Maybe not around here though.
I understand your distinction. You could say that racism is more a doctrinal framework that one subscribes to while bias is more an attitude. But does it really matter whether a person is discriminated against due to racism or bias? I would argue again that the effect is still the same. In fact, the biased person who systematically and habitually attributes negative stereotypes to a certain race of people is in effect acting in a racist manner by definition. To be biased against someone of a certain race due to a presupposition of their character based on negative stereotypes attributed to that race is essentially to be motivated by racism itself.
Additionally, people in power operating on bias are just as susceptible to "domination" of those they are biased against as racists. And of course there are powerless racists with no hope of ever dominating anyone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scarlet_ohara
When people make statements like this, it perpetuates Black stereotypes.
My husband was raised in Mississippi in the 60s. His father died when he was young. His mother never remarried and raised her children on her own without assistance even though they were poor - although she did have an extended family support system.
His high school counselor told him he wouldn't get into a particular university, but he did on merit, worked his way and went on to med school. So did his brother.
So instead of perpetuating negative stereotypes, why not look for the reasons why some Blacks don't fit your legacy stereotype.
Not really. I simply pointed out that blacks by and large would undoubtedly be much more successful at this point in time had they been allowed to emigrate from Africa of their own accord and not have had to endure the damaging legacy of oppression. This of course is not to say that black descendants of those oppressed aren't capable of achieving success in this time. We are seeing remarkable strides made today by many American blacks, and it will only get better with time and greater opportunity.
Ok, I don't know how to make it more clear that the people I know did not have any social networks or help from fellow members of their race. So please continue to miss my points. Even if they did have help (which again, they did not), the groups are much smaller and much less established than the black population is/was. And just as predisposed to be hated or racially profiled/mistreated by white people. Don't for one second think a lighter shade of brown changed anything. Give me a f'in break.
Then you go on to make my other point...yes, the African immigrants (ie, the ones who CHOSE to come here and had the means and wherewithall to do so) are doing well...maybe those who choose to come and make the effort (and are even able to make it all come together to cross the ocean and establish their place in the economy) are different from random people scooped up and forced over here.
Think of the hispanic population here...those who made the effort to jump through the hoops, take the tests, do the paperwork, and obtain employment are doing MUCH DIFFERENTLY than those who come from the villages and sneak over illegally. They do better, their children do better, etc.
People are not equal in ability and aptitude. This is not race based. This is just true across the board, no matter who you are and where you're from. If you go through the effort of creating and carrying out a plan to come to this country legally and with employment and an economic goal in mind, you will do much differently than those who either find themselves here by chance or because they are drawn here for the random free sh*t.
Perhaps you're making my point. You quoted your mother as wondering why blacks as a whole aren't doing better than they "should", given their length of time in this country. I simply suggested (as you seem to do as well) that, with blacks, merely being in this country longer than most groups did not equate to an increased ability to advance as a group relative to immigrant groups more newly arrived. The reason for this should be obvious. You simply cannot subject an entire sector of society to generations upon generations of enslavement followed by another hundred years of brutal government sanctioned oppression and discrimination and expect them to be as successful as they would have been had they been allowed to immigrate here freely (like the successful immigrant groups you see today) and subjected to little, if any, systematic oppression.
So while Asians may have had their rough moments in the history of this country, they were clearly advantaged by the ability to more or less escape the doctrinaire institutionalization of black intellectual, moral and physical inferiority. Indeed, some of the most vehement anti-black racists would just as quickly place an Asian upon a pedestal as they would knock a black off of it.
This of course is not to say that black descendants of those oppressed aren't capable of achieving success in this time. We are seeing remarkable strides made today by many American blacks, and it will only get better with time and greater opportunity.
What greater opportunity has to happen before people are responsible for themselves? America is sick to death listening to defense lawyers.
Of course you are. I'm also a self made millionaire business man, I mean a doctor, I mean I'm retired already, I mean I grew up poor and pulled myself by my bootstraps, I mean a lawyer...
Wow! Your life sounds a lost like Forrest...Forrest Gump.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHartphotog
Who is the "we" in "How do we cure black underachievement?"
that question has been asked several times. Maybe it's one of life's great mysteries
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more funding does not make people smart, but it does buy books and computers, teachers aides, all of which goes to teach johnny. there will always be a percentage of lazy, unmotivated children. they come in all races. do you really think all the white children are learning, none cut class or go to school to get drugs and hang with their buddies? teen pregnancy is high across all racial lines. starving children in india ans china, what schools do they attend? your bias shows through your posting