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Old 07-22-2010, 12:13 AM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
4,897 posts, read 8,317,746 times
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I can think of a single leftist President we've had since FDR.
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:39 AM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,602,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djacques View Post
Bush Jr. was an evil criminal maniac, but he wasn't all that right-wing in any notable philosophical sense. In practice he was barely to the right of Clinton.
W was extremely SOCIALLY conservative (much more so than Clinton), and very right wing. That doesn't necessarily mean that he was that economically conservative.

Quote:
But to answer the question, one has to define the terms. What are the defining characteristics of "right-wing"? Is "right-wing" synonymous with "conservative"? If not, what are the relevant differences?
The term "conservative" means different things at different times, and so does the term "right wing"

Quote:
Andrew Jackson was a militaristic psychopath (usually associated with the right) and a champion and lover of the common man and hater of financial interests (usually associated with the left) but only those of his own race (usually associated with the right). So what do we call him?
Jackson's times were extremely different from our own.

There are militaristic psychopaths on the left, e.g. Stalin (not that I'm comparing Jackson to Stalin, although if you're a Cherokee you'd probably think so)

He was definitely not considered a conservative in his time.

Quote:
Grover Cleveland was a financial conservative (usually associated with the right) and an anti-imperialist (usually associated with the left) and a constitutional strict constructionist (usually associated with the right.) So what do we call him?
A libertarian. Ron Paul has a portrait of Cleveland in his office. Anti-imperialism on the right has a long history. Sen. Robert Taft, the leader of the "Old Right" faction of the GOP who would today be considered a libertarian, opposed WW2, the Marshall Plan, and the Korean War due to his opposition to government power across the board. War is the ultimate exercise of government power.

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Richard Nixon was a fiscal Keynesian (usually associated with the left) and an unrepentant imperialist (usually associated with the right) and was an advocate of affirmative action (usually associated with the left). So what do we call him?
A moderate.

Quote:
You can do the same with just about any president. So just what defines these terms we fight so fiercely about?
The terms left and right have become outdated, as they've changed so much. The definitions of the terms liberal and conservative have changed over the years, and differ worldwide. For example, the Australian Liberal Party is like the US Republican Party, and the Australian Democratic Party is more like the US Libertarian Party than the US Democratic Party.The Russian Liberal Democratic Party is a neo-Nazi party (which has nothing in common with the UK or Japanese Liberal Democratic Parties, which themselves have nothing in common with each other.) "Green" parties in Western nations are left wing and environmentalist, while "Green" parties in Muslim countries are Islamist parties. Calling oneself "Republican" in Ireland or Spain is quite different than calling oneself "Republican" in the US. Etc. etc. etc.
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:41 AM
 
1,743 posts, read 2,159,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ergohead View Post
Abe Lincoln.

Actually Abe was a liberal and a closet atheist
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Earth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avengerfire View Post
jfk (he certainly was not far left or centrist so maybe he was far right by default)

eisenhower was though-no question
JFK was a liberal, although not an extreme liberal. He'd be a Dem today if he was still alive although hardly a member of the most liberal wing of the party.

Eisenhower self-defined as a moderate.

You'd probably have to go back to Harding and Coolidge to find extreme conservatives.
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:46 AM
 
Location: Chicago
15,586 posts, read 27,612,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
JFK was a liberal, although not an extreme liberal. He'd be a Dem today if he was still alive although hardly a member of the most liberal wing of the party.

Eisenhower self-defined as a moderate...
Compared to most liberals of today JFK was conservative and Ike was Ultra-Conservative. That is my context.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:22 AM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,602,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avengerfire View Post
Compared to most liberals of today JFK was conservative and Ike was Ultra-Conservative. That is my context.
Ike ultra-conservative?

Let's see: the highest tax bracket at 91%, the largest public works make-work project since the New Deal, ending a war and avoiding getting involved in any new wars....doesn't sound ultra-conservative to me.

His SCOTUS appointments weren't conservative: moderate Potter Stewart, moderate Republican turned liberal Earl Warren, and extremely liberal Dem William Brennan.

The times were very different than today. Not as different as Andrew Jackson's era, but still quite different.

Ike defined himself as a centrist and Kennedy defined himself as a liberal. Kennedy wanted to repeal Taft-Hartley and institute UHC rather than corporate welfare like Obamacare. Kennedy was to the left of Obama. As for social issues, those of that time were very different than today ; they involved basic civil and human rights rather than today's issues. Abortion was not yet an issue in Kennedy's time, thus we do not know how he felt about it ; however, considering that both of his brothers opposed abortion (Teddy would change his views after Roe) it's safe to say he was also opposed to it. Gays had very few friends in either party ; their only real friend on the high levels of US politics was Goldwater, who was a conservative.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:24 AM
 
Location: Chicago
15,586 posts, read 27,612,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
...Kennedy was to the left of Obama...
Surely you jest.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:27 AM
 
5,719 posts, read 6,447,937 times
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GW Bush was far to the right. Just because he wasn't fiscally conservative doesn't mean he wasn't far to the right. The GOP is only ever fiscally conservative when it's not in power.

The history of the Bush presidency has been completely rewritten this past year, and it's mind-blowing.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Earth
17,440 posts, read 28,602,920 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avengerfire View Post
Surely you jest.
Kennedy wanted actual UHC rather than something like corporate welfare Obamacare. He also wanted to repeal Taft-Hartley.

Never mind Kennedy, Nixon was slightly to the left of Obama! Just because Obama's to the left of every one of Nixon's successors doesn't mean he's that far left.
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Old 07-22-2010, 01:37 AM
 
Location: Chicago
15,586 posts, read 27,612,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majoun View Post
Kennedy...also wanted to repeal Taft-Hartley...
He did?

Maybe you need to read this:

"In 1958 Kennedy introduced a bill (S 3974) which became the first major labor relations bill to pass either house since the Taft-Hartley Act of 1947. The bill dealt largely with the control of union abuses exposed by the McClellan committee but did not incorporate tough Taft-Hartley amendments requested by the President. It survived Senate floor attempts to include Taft-Hartley amendments and gained passage but was rejected by the House. (1958 Almanac p. 191)"

"In addition Sen. Wayne Morse (D Ore.), an announced candidate for the Democratic Presidential nomination and one of the two Senators (the other: the late Sen. William Langer (1941-1959 R N.D.), who voted against final passage of the bill, has frequently attacked Kennedy before union groups. A film Morse made to explain his own vote on the bill, in which he calls Kennedy the man "most responsible" for "one of the most anti-labor bills" in history, has been used widely by Teamsters and other union groups. The AFL-CIO said it had not and would not use the film."

John F. Kennedy's Voting Record and Stands on Issues Page 2 - John F. Kennedy Presidential Library & Museum (http://www.jfklibrary.org/Historical+Resources/Archives/Reference+Desk/John+F.+Kennedys+Voting+Record+and+Stands+on+Issue s+Page+2.htm - broken link)

Kennedy Invokes Taft-Hartley To Halt Aerospace Walkout

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5920%2C3198340
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