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I've tried twice to start a discussion on reverse discrimination in the public sector and twice I was slammed and deleted. The first time I was acussed of race baiting by the moderator "Dark of the moon" the second time it never made it to this forum. Never mind that I find that constant reference to what whites are doing to blacks and other minorities such as the tirade by cocogirl even though she had parts of it deleted, it was still allowed to stand. There is definatly a double standard here and frankly discrimination. How this post has been left up is a miracle. I once wnet to apply for a job with the post office and the black postal ladies at the table told me I didn't have a chace unless I was a vetran because I was a white male, now when I walk into a public agency all I see are minorities in the office, what happened to racial parity now?
Let's stop right here for a moment. I would challenge such a claim with the response that the "mainly whites" view the issue much differently (being that I'm white, puts me in a better position to say ... don't you think?)
Neither I personally, nor "white America" are responsible for slavery, nor any other misdeed (of which there are many) throughout the history of America, which occurred long before all of us were born. And you might have an immediate epiphany in this regard were your house discovered to be located on ancient native American burial lands, and I, as part native American demanded that you remove yourself out of respect for my ancestors and my spiritual beliefs.
1. Present day white America is NOT responsible for slavery but are the decendants of those who did. I need to remind you Blacks were the ONLY group of people who did not come over here voluntarily so that crap about being remove from your burial lands means nothing to me.
The point is, the idea of one "paying for the sins of their father" (or in this case the potential sins of their great, great, great, great grandfathers) is totally illegitimate, as is the back tracking through time for purpose of identifying wrongs to justify some form of modern compensation today. Where is the statute of limitation? 50 years ... 100 years ... 1000? This kind of thinking just so happens to be the foundation of the Arab-Israeli conflict where the Jews claim a 2000 year old right to murder and ethnically cleanse their land of people that have been living there before Columbus discovered the New World. This is the "manifest destiny" philosophy which has been used as an excuse for many acts of conquest over the course of human history.
2. Have I asked or even suggested any compensation for slavery? NO! For one, every black in this country is NOT a direct decendant of slavery and therefore should not be compensated. I won't argue with regarding the middle east conflict since I agree with what you stated.
In addition, the facts are, that aside from the very small minority of wealthy land owners who settled the New World ... the European (mostly British) elite, the vast percentages of people brought here held very low status, usually that of indentured servants which separates them from black slaves only insofar as their servitude (slavery) had an expiration date which granted them freedom, but offered little else in the form of advantages for success. And, contrary to your misguided perceptions, very few of them ever extricated themselves from that class, with the majority relegated to a lifetime as class servants and laborers. THEY (WE) do not OWE YOU.
3. Once again I NEVER said that anyone owes me or any other person of color anything. You are misguided in your statement regarding slavery vs indentured servants. FREEDOM rather you know it or not is a BIG advantage as far as success is concerned. Apparently you are not well versed in American history b/c if you were you would have known that the indenture servants were used originally but could not be subjected to certain treatment and sometime left to blend in with the rest of society. Some later even became SLAVEOWNERS!. Next they tried to use the native americans as slaves but b/c of their strong will and knowledge of the land they could not be kept in captivity. Finally the solution was to use Africans, they could not blend in with the rest of society b/c of their skin color, they were not familiar with the land so they had no where to go and to top it all off they were considered to be PROPERTY! So tell me how can a group of people go from being equal to a horse or a common dog to being able to look a whiteman directly in the eyes without being whipped or killed?
I don't even know where to begin with this self pity all dressed up in fallacy. Perhaps the nonsense about the Native Americans being allowed to keep their unique culture is a good place to start? The Native American cultures were systematically and totally annihilated ... with those not slaughtered outright, herded onto reservations where they were forced to starve and rely on Government handouts for there very survival. And to this day, there are still signed contracts (treaties) for which the US Government still refuses to honor, and the crimes committed against the Native Americans has NO PARALLEL in our "collective" history ... nor much protection or special consideration today either.
4. I like many of other educated and well adjusted blacks do not want your PITY all that I'm asking for is understanding and an open dialog regarding the fallacies and truths regarding racism in this country. I'm very aware of the struggles of the native americans but like I said before they still manage to retain a great deal of their culture and religion. Now rather they want to accept and continue with them is another matter, but they have that choice, whereas blacks never did.
And as much of a tragedy as this was, and an unremovable stain on the fabric of this country no doubt, the native American culture survived from their efforts alone, in spite of every effort to destroy them completely. And it is their inherent honor and reason that prevents them from coming to YOU with demands that you right the wrongs of the past. Keep in mind the Buffalo Soldier who was a willing participant in the slaughter of Native Americans, in service to the Union Army in the crusade to wipe the "savages" off of the planet. And this happened long after the emancipation of African slaves ... so you tell me who has the greater and more recent claim to special treatment or legitimate reasons to gripe and complain?
5. Actually they did come with demands, just b/c they went unheeded does not mean that they were not demands. Treaties wether they are adhered to or broken are agreements (demands). As far as the Buffalo soliders are concerned, you do realize that there were blacks who fought alongside the natives against the europeans. And since you want to bring that up there were blacks who fought AGAINST the union army, there are americans that are fighting WITH the Taliban against america so I ask you what is your point? Come to think about it where were the native americans during the civil rights movement? Did they have to suffer lynching parties all the way up to the 60s? Did Jim Crow laws affect them? Were they sprayed with fire hoses or attacked by dogs in recent times? I greive for the Native American treatment in the past but they (you) know where you came from and can trace your heritage far easier than I can trace mine.....so as far as I'm concerned I have a right to "gripe and complain" if I so choose to do so! Not so much for myself, but for the rape of my ancestors, the removal from their homeland, and the destruction of their religion and culture
Then there is the case of the internment of the Japanese (not Chinese) Americans who were rounded up like cattle and imprisoned ... losing all of their possessions in the process. This happened in the 20th century ... not the 17th and 18th Centuries. And it's rare to see an American of Japanese decent walking down the street in a freaking Kimono, or referring to themselves as Japanese Americans. They don't sleep on bamboo roll ups on the floor, and you might even see one eating a hamburger at Mcdonalds from time to time.
6. I admit I did make a mistake in that matter, but what happened to them lasted what 10 years max? verses 200 years of institionized slavery and dehumanization? What you did not mention is while the Japense were being "rounded up" during the war blacks were still being LYNCHED by those very same people. You do not see it only b/c some Japenese do not display their customs in public but at home where it is more accepted. What you cannot see through myopic eyes is that they CHOSE not to parcipate in customary rituals not b/c they cant. I bet that they can trace their country of origin also.
The fact is, the black community's culture crisis is born in the unending efforts and desire to be different and separate, rather than part of America. But regardless of this, you are a damned American because you were born an American, as was your grandfather and his grandfather was, just like the rest of us. And it's way past time to dispense with the self pity and the excuses, along with the contradictions of blaming "segregation" on one hand while your every action is a tireless effort to segregate yourselves, including the label of African-American.
7. Africans were brought to this country b/c we were different as explained earlier. I don't know ANY blacks that want to be separate (except for the extremist) we just want to be able to share in the fruits of our ancestor's blood sweat and tears equally. Blacks are unable to "Separate" ourselves from anyone, but then again why should we? WE have contributed just as much to well being of this country as anyone else and all we ask is to be able to eat from that same table as everyone else. By the way when was the last time have you seen or even heard of a real estate agent turn away a white person who wanted to live in a predominately black neighborhood? I'm still waiting for your answer
You say you want a color blind society, yet a moment cannot pass that the black community fails to inject color into every issue, and conversation, including the greatest fallacy of all ..... "White America".
8. What I would like is equality for all but as a previous pollster had mentioned it is human nature to point out the difference between one another. The Choice comes in on do we exploit them or accept them and move on. White America is not a fallacy since the top 3% of wealthy Americans are white and the lawmakers are majority are also white. This does not bother me as much as these powerful and wealthy americans control the country by having the middle class and the poor fight amongst each other for the crumbs left behind. Misguided and/or uneducated individuals keep confusion up by refusing to open constructive dialog with people from other races.
You tell me who the real racists are today?
9. Racist are the people who can (and try) to promote their own belief in superiority while preventing anyone who (they believe) is not of the same genetic stock from acheiving the same goals. Does that answer your question?
The very people who complain about blacks need to stop "whining" about racism are so blind to their own racism that it is pathetic.
First of all the same old hogwash that Africans had no culture or skills in the first place so why should black Americans complain about something we never had? Are you friggin serious!!!! Africans were brought to this country as a SKILLED labor force - skilled in metalworking and subtropical agricultural techniques. Shocking ain't it. I guess some of you thought that slavery was a blessing and sure as hell beat being eaten by cannibals back in ole heathen dark continent Afriky.
Well I was born during the Civil Rights movement and worked my entire career for the US Foreign Service so I have seen a few things in both my career and lifetime. If you think black Americans are a bunch of whiners and losers try talking to the Europeans, Chinese, Indians and pretty much everyone else on the planet about the average white American and you will get an earful.
After a recent return from a 3-month stay in surveying the Asian Pacific Rim countries the Chinese government wanted to know why is it that "your" country disciminates so heavily against blacks because when they were in the States and dealing with the US government all of the white employees (all higher ranking than the blacks ONLY because of their race) were basically dumb and uninformed yet they were making high salaries? Said Chinese officials stated that they were shocked at how hypocritical the average white American was and how ignorant of other races and cultures even in his own backyard. They wanted to know why so many white Americans criticized blacks for being lazy welfare recipients when many of them were working high paying jobs that they were unsuited for. So obviously they got those jobs because of their race.
I told them you hit the nail on the head but of course they will never look at their own shortcomings. Just demonize blacks like they have been doing for the past 400 years. The same questions from the governments of India and Saudi Arabia. The main reason why computer jobs have skipped town for Asia is because they were sick of paying "lazy unskilled WHITES" high salaries for half-azzed work when they could pay an Asian a quarter of that salary for highly skilled work.
Of course the average white American is so beyond the pale it's useless arguing with them since most of them get their knowledge of black people from their bible "The Aryan Vanguard."
The Chinese govt and high officials were totally blown away by the skills, poise and charm of the black employees and could GLARINGLY see the racism in American society. They couldn't wait till I hit Asian shores to let me know what they really thought of white Americans in general. The only reaosn why the Japanese even bother hiring white Americans is because they have to by international law. In order for Toyota to operate in the States they have to be willing to hire Americans who want to work in Japan and the Japanese are NOT pleased about it because you get the typical lowskilled white person who just because his skin is white expects a 7-figure salary while all the time bemoaning the "good jobs" unqualified lazy blacks get from AA. Yeah right! I actually got my job because the Feds figured out that if they privatized the work they would have to pay whites in private industry millions of dollars because being white that's what they expect no matter how dumb and unqualified like most of the losers I work with who can't even spell "Shanghai".
Say what you will the world sees it and black Americans see it. White Americans are basically spoiled children used to having their way and getting shyt they are not qualified for just because of their race and they ain't fooling nobody but themselves. If anybody pisses and moans about shyt it is them and like I said I am not the only one seeing it. Here are a people blessed with 400 years of advantages and still hollering and screaming about a "black" president and all of the million dollar checks blacks are allegedly receiving from the govt when the world sees it's THEM that are getting all of the freebies. There are few countries in the world where you can be dumb as hell yet making millions of dollars just because you have the "right" skin color. Everybody else gets it but them.
Wow! When I was in Saudi I have heard something familiar but I never really gave it much thought. Nice post
You are 100% wrong. Read "Race and Culture" By Thomas Sowell.
Everyones standard of living is higher than it was 60 years ago. It was the social health of black families that was higher. Look at the statistics involving intact black families through the years and traditional values in black communities. They have been on a steady decline.
When it comes to taking your word for it or that of Thomas Sowell, I'll believe him any day.
Earlier you claimed that blacks want to separate but then you rant about their standard of living was higher in the 50s. Isn't that the time that Jim Crow was alive and kicking? Was lynching parties a common occurence in the south? This is what ignorant people like yourself want to go back to? You can take that outdated book by Thomas Sowell and read it from the latter part of your digestive system
First off, whites were not the only ones in on this. Blacks, Jews and Arabs all also had a hand in the slave trade. Up until 2007 slavery was still legal in place in (gasp!) Africa.
So stop with the "innocent blacks" stuff, once and for all, OK?
Clearly you haven't seen Larry Elder's book, "Ten Things You Can't Say in America"? The first chapter is titled "Blacks are More Racist than Whites".
Larry is black.
Slavery in it's truest form has been around since the dawn of time, but American slavery has had the most lasting affect on a group of people.
footnote: Just b/c one token is used to get some candy does not make it right to use them instead of quarters.
I've tried twice to start a discussion on reverse discrimination in the public sector and twice I was slammed and deleted. The first time I was acussed of race baiting by the moderator "Dark of the moon" the second time it never made it to this forum. Never mind that I find that constant reference to what whites are doing to blacks and other minorities such as the tirade by cocogirl even though she had parts of it deleted, it was still allowed to stand. There is definatly a double standard here and frankly discrimination. How this post has been left up is a miracle. I once wnet to apply for a job with the post office and the black postal ladies at the table told me I didn't have a chace unless I was a vetran because I was a white male, now when I walk into a public agency all I see are minorities in the office, what happened to racial parity now?
Have you looked in the director's office or in the board room? You tell me.
Like I said before, even a poor white person has a slight avantage over a poor black, please read the my examples that I provide earlier.
You are right. I had a tremendous advantage over most Blacks.
I had the advantage of a father who taught me that the world doesn't owe me a living and that I was going to have to stand on my own two feet in life. I had parents that instilled in me good values and taught me the difference between right and wrong. They taught me not to take what wasn't mine and to treat others as I would like to be treated. They taught me that if I wanted others to respect me I would have to conduct myself in a manner that commands respect. They also taught me that trust is difficult to earn but very easy to lose. They taught me that making the right choices and taking control of my own destiny would lead to my success. They taught me to own my failures and to learn from them and not repeat them. They taught me to keep my nose clean and stay out of trouble. They taught me that success and happiness comes from focusing on what is important in life and resisting temptation.
So, in that respect I have to agree I had an advantage.
Now, if we are talking about competing for a job or a college admission with race based hiring quotas or minority reserved seats, I had a distinct disadvantage. And I also had a disadvantage in that I was not elidgable for special minority grant money stolen from our countries producers and earmarked for only non-producing minorities.
Quote:
Originally Posted by simetime
For you to make such an stupid statement proves that you are totally ignorant of world history and further proves my point regarding the loses of the Africans once they were brought to this country.
FIRST, STOP WITH THE WORD "IGNORANT" ALREADY; IT'S A LEFT WING CLICHÉ.
I guess that you believe that the great people of Egypt were of not people of color, or the great learning capital of Timbuktu (sp) were all white europeans. Then again I guess your education of the people of Africa comes from that stupid story of TARZAN of the apes!
IT MIGHT INTEREST YOU TO KNOW THAT IT WAS THE NORTH AFRICAN, MUSLIM COUNTRIES THAT CONTROLLED THE SLAVE TRADE. THOSE COUNTRIES PRACTICED SLAVERY FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME AND STILL DO TO THIS DAY. THE SLAVES IN THIS COUNTRY WERE THE SUB-SAHARAN AFRICANS PURCHASED FROM THEM MOSTLY WITH RUM.
Obama has been relatively neutral or made very little mention regarding race in America.
HAVE YOU EVER PICKED UP A NEWS PAPER? WHAT OTHER PRESIDENT HELD A BEER SUMMIT STEMMING FROM A COP ASKING A BLACK MAN FOR HIS ID WHEN RESPONDING TO A B & E - A PERFECTLY REASONABLE REQUEST? THEN HE WENT ON TV CALLING THE PERFECTLY REASONABLE REQUEST STUPID. WHAT ABOUT VAN JONES, WHAT ABOUT THE GOOD REVEREND WRIGHT? WHAT ABOUT ACORN WHICH IS A PURELY RACIST ORGANIZATION. WHAT ABOUT THE SUIT AGAINST THE NEW BLACK PANTHERS BEING MYSTERIOUSLY WITHDRAWN? IF YOU THINK THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION DOESN'T HAVE ANTI-WHITE MOTIVES YOU MUST BE LIVING ON MARS.
He had to b/c of the thin skinned conservatives and the ultra sensitive groups. Since you want to talk about him discriminating against Whites, Riddle me this Batman when was the last a sitting president gave a townhall meeting with individuals carrying loaded guns outside?
YOU DO KNOW THE GUY WITH THE GUN WAS A BLACK MAN RIGHT??????
When was the last time that a group of people pictured the president as a racial caricture? What president had more death threats BEFORE he was elected to office?
GEE, LET'S SEE, HOW ABOUT BUSH AND EVERY PRESIDENT BEFORE HIM. BUSH WAS COMPARED TO HITLER MORE TIMES THAN ONE COULD COUNT.
I'm pretty sure that it was'nt blacks doing this to him. Despite of all of this he STILL has not tried to make policies that favored blacks over whites or even made a big deal about it.
NO, IT JUST SO HAPPENS THAT THE HEALTH CARE BILL COVERS NEARLY ALL BLACK PEOPLE AT THE EXPENSE OF MAINLY WHITES.
Eventhough there are still idoits claiming everything from him not be an American citizen to he is Hitler reincarnate he has remained calm during this bs.
As far as the extreme right being labeled as everything that you mentioned, where have the accusations come from originally? Even as recently they managed to accuse a federal employee of using her position to not help whites keep their farms. This was proven to be a lie, but the left did not start that rumor an overzealous loser on the right did and the fools on the left fell for it.
WRONG! I WATCHED THE ENTIRE 42 MINUTE VIDEO. SHE DID HOLD BACK FROM HELPING THE WHITE FARMER UNTIL SHE FIGURED OUT THAT IT WAS MORE ABOUT CLASS WARFARE THAN RACE.
Can you please explain why the teabaggers are under attack for their racist remarks/posters ect, are'nt they part of the right wing? All of the anti gay policies originate from the Right don't they? Eventhough immigration is a concern for all Americans but the Right has been steadfast in attacking everyones constitutional rights to get at a few illegals. The extreme right has really lost what little closed minded intellect that they had by isolated themselves from the rest of America. Just listen to some of them "We want our country back" from what? Or do they really mean back to the 50s and 60s.
As far a the conflict in the Middle East, I'm not a great supporter of the arabs but even the average joe can see that the policies have for the most part favor the hardline jews. Even the most moderate ones who want true peace through compromise are ignored.
What is sad, is that I would not label you as a racist, just steadfast in your ultraconservative views that are not quite accurate
I'm not going to saddle your little tangent about the Right and ride it off into the sunset.
The fact is, the things that happened to Blacks ages ago DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You and your ilk keep talking about what the white man did to "our people." NOTHING HAPPENED TO YOUR PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON WITH THEM SAVE FOR SKIN COLOR.
Unless you are 80 years old, you have never experienced racism. In fact YOU were born into "privilege" by virtue of being born in America. You need to stop whining about what happened ages ago to a whole separate group of people that look like you. It is a **** poor excuse.
Go back and read what I wrote about what my parents taught me. Get it through your head and teach it to your children. That and that alone is what will advance "your people."
If you keep pushing for this redistribution crap - sooner or later the producers from whom you wish to steal are going to pick up their toys and go home. In fact, that has already happened in a few major cities. How's that working out for you? How are all those factories we left you doing? Are you guys hard at work putting all those machines to good use? How about the miles of once prime retail frontage that the Whites just walked away from? Anyone take advantage of that or no?
Suppose we all just picked up from the entire country and said "F*** it." You think you would all be living large? Hell, maybe I'll just close down my business and go on welfare.
You are right. I had a tremendous advantage over most Blacks.
I had the advantage of a father who taught me that the world doesn't owe me a living and that I was going to have to stand on my own two feet in life. I had parents that instilled in me good values and taught me the difference between right and wrong. They taught me not to take what wasn't mine and to treat others as I would like to be treated. They taught me that if I wanted others to respect me I would have to conduct myself in a manner that commands respect. They also taught me that trust is difficult to earn but very easy to lose. They taught me that making the right choices and taking control of my own destiny would lead to my success. They taught me to own my failures and to learn from them and not repeat them. They taught me to keep my nose clean and stay out of trouble. They taught me that success and happiness comes from focusing on what is important in life and resisting temptation.
So, in that respect I have to agree I had an advantage.
Now, if we are talking about competing for a job or a college admission with race based hiring quotas or minority reserved seats, I had a distinct disadvantage. And I also had a disadvantage in that I was not elidgable for special minority grant money stolen from our countries producers and earmarked for only non-producing minorities.
I'm not going to saddle your little tangent about the Right and ride it off into the sunset.
The fact is, the things that happened to Blacks ages ago DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You and your ilk keep talking about what the white man did to "our people." NOTHING HAPPENED TO YOUR PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON WITH THEM SAVE FOR SKIN COLOR.
Unless you are 80 years old, you have never experienced racism. In fact YOU were born into "privilege" by virtue of being born in America. You need to stop whining about what happened ages ago to a whole separate group of people that look like you. It is a **** poor excuse.
Go back and read what I wrote about what my parents taught me. Get it through your head and teach it to your children. That and that alone is what will advance "your people."
What a terrific, dead-on-target post. I was taught the same things. One has to "earn" respect. It cannot be legislated any more than morality can be legislated. Both have to come from within each individual.
You are right. I had a tremendous advantage over most Blacks.
I had the advantage of a father who taught me that the world doesn't owe me a living and that I was going to have to stand on my own two feet in life. I had parents that instilled in me good values and taught me the difference between right and wrong. They taught me not to take what wasn't mine and to treat others as I would like to be treated. They taught me that if I wanted others to respect me I would have to conduct myself in a manner that commands respect. They also taught me that trust is difficult to earn but very easy to lose. They taught me that making the right choices and taking control of my own destiny would lead to my success. They taught me to own my failures and to learn from them and not repeat them. They taught me to keep my nose clean and stay out of trouble. They taught me that success and happiness comes from focusing on what is important in life and resisting temptation.
So, in that respect I have to agree I had an advantage.
Now, if we are talking about competing for a job or a college admission with race based hiring quotas or minority reserved seats, I had a distinct disadvantage. And I also had a disadvantage in that I was not elidgable for special minority grant money stolen from our countries producers and earmarked for only non-producing minorities.
I'm not going to saddle your little tangent about the Right and ride it off into the sunset.
The fact is, the things that happened to Blacks ages ago DID NOT HAPPEN TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You and your ilk keep talking about what the white man did to "our people." NOTHING HAPPENED TO YOUR PEOPLE BECAUSE YOU HAVE NOTHING IN COMMON WITH THEM SAVE FOR SKIN COLOR.
Unless you are 80 years old, you have never experienced racism. In fact YOU were born into "privilege" by virtue of being born in America. You need to stop whining about what happened ages ago to a whole separate group of people that look like you. It is a **** poor excuse.
Go back and read what I wrote about what my parents taught me. Get it through your head and teach it to your children. That and that alone is what will advance "your people."
If you keep pushing for this redistribution crap - sooner or later the producers from whom you wish to steal are going to pick up their toys and go home. In fact, that has already happened in a few major cities. How's that working out for you? How are all those factories we left you doing? Are you guys hard at work putting all those machines to good use? How about the miles of once prime retail frontage that the Whites just walked away from? Anyone take advantage of that or no?
Suppose we all just picked up from the entire country and said "F*** it." You think you would all be living large? Hell, maybe I'll just close down my business and go on welfare.
<sighs> You like the many others only hear/see what you want to. What makes you think that my father did not teach me those very same things? What makes you think that I do not instill those principles in my sons?
I went to Penn State University and paid for it through the same loans and grants as everyone else. And to be quite honest with you since I served in the Air Force I feel like I was entitled to any and everything that I got from the 20years that I gave to this country so I don't feel that I fall into your blanket statement of "non-producing minority". Do you?
You learned from your father who assumed learned from his father, well if your great, great grandfather had been a slave your view on race in america would be dramatically different now would'nt it?
Like I told the ostrich before you I never mentioned ANYTHING about spreading the wealth of this nation to those who don't deserve it.
I really don't know what bug faux news put up your butt, but I suggest that you know what is said and in what context before you jump to conclusions and break your leg.
Oh yeah, by the way I have experienced racism but fortunately it only delayed me a little as to what I set out to do (complete my education). The only thing that I would like to see in this country is an open dialog on race in America without people being accused of "race baiting", "whinning", or some other assinine remarks.
I thought those white nationalists, stormfronters, always blame the left/liberals............there are so many on the "right" who use the exact same arguments that David Duke uses against the "liberals."
Listen to what Duke has to say here. Do these arguments sound familiar?
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