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Old 07-26-2010, 08:23 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
Reputation: 9728

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Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
the details are not, of course, that simple.

but i think the ideologies involved are that simple, yes. Scandinavia, France, some of Central Europe and the Mediterranean, see the progressive redistribution of wealth as a good thing and a high priority. This is similar to California or New England in the U.S., which I don't think constitutes a majority American opinion.

the American south, for example, has a large % of people in poverty, so there is a legitimate fear among the middle class about what sacrifices that "socialism" would really entail. Socialists seem to think that we have high poverty rates because we have this capitalist attitude, but I think this is backwards. Our ideology is a product of our demographics and our economic environment, one which predates both the united states and free market capitalism.

Just look at all the poorer Muslims and Africans and Turks that are emigrating to large European cities, and look at the responses from the white ethnic Dutch and the white ethnic French and the white ethnic Austrians, et cetera. This brand of multiculturalism, rather new to Europe, is what America was built out of.
In my view the whole poverty problem and approaches to solve revolve around this: Humans vary quite a bit in terms of intelligence, ambition, skills etc. It would be naive to deny that, nor can we change much beyond a certain degree. Now, since we have complex, competitive societies and economic systems, where basically there is no real demand for people who have deficits in the aforementioned aspects, how are we to deal with those people. Do we punish them for their characteristics for which they probably are not to blame anyway? I don't think we should. Nor can we ignore them, else they will cause problems for all of society. Thus in my view we have to guarantee a certain quality of life especially to the least productive, intelligent, skilled etc.

 
Old 07-26-2010, 08:59 AM
 
19,226 posts, read 15,292,271 times
Reputation: 2337
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
In my view the whole poverty problem and approaches to solve revolve around this: Humans vary quite a bit in terms of intelligence, ambition, skills etc. It would be naive to deny that, nor can we change much beyond a certain degree. Now, since we have complex, competitive societies and economic systems, where basically there is no real demand for people who have deficits in the aforementioned aspects, how are we to deal with those people. Do we punish them for their characteristics for which they probably are not to blame anyway? I don't think we should. Nor can we ignore them, else they will cause problems for all of society. Thus in my view we have to guarantee a certain quality of life especially to the least productive, intelligent, skilled etc.
The prevailing management strategy is to provide them with Government jobs.
 
Old 07-26-2010, 09:12 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,928,755 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
In my view the whole poverty problem and approaches to solve revolve around this: Humans vary quite a bit in terms of intelligence, ambition, skills etc. It would be naive to deny that, nor can we change much beyond a certain degree. Now, since we have complex, competitive societies and economic systems, where basically there is no real demand for people who have deficits in the aforementioned aspects, how are we to deal with those people. Do we punish them for their characteristics for which they probably are not to blame anyway? I don't think we should. Nor can we ignore them, else they will cause problems for all of society. Thus in my view we have to guarantee a certain quality of life especially to the least productive, intelligent, skilled etc.
The variation of skill is vast. A persons intelligence or education does not always determine a persons income or success. I was making only around 45k a year doing extensive reading and programming. I had to stay up on my topic constantly, reading around 50-100 tech books a year. It was very hard and detailed work that required a certain level of knowledge and ability and yet...

My cousin was working construction pulling in 80-100k a year because he had is own skill sets. He had a hard time reading a news paper, much less a tech book and yet he excelled rather well.

I knew another person who started her own business. She liked to make those fake flower decorations. She wasn't overly intelligent, dropped out of high school and her flowers were not anything extremely skillful in talent, she simply liked doing it and people bought them. She pulled in over 90 thousand dollars one year.

My grandfather has an 8th grade education and yet he did very well for himself as a contractor working his way up because he was a hard worker, no quit, always on type of guy to which insured that the job always got done, no matter how difficult the obstacle.


The point is, I have seen ambition, dedication, perseverance, etc... trump skill. Sometimes people just need to try, take a risk, and find what works for them. Will everyone be at the same level? Will everyone succeed? No, there are always those who will not for various reasons. Some will be because of some tough breaks in their life, others will be because of their choice.

The point is, each is free to pursue what is best for them and other than some "special" cases, each will be exactly in their life where they have chosen to be. This puts the freedom in each individuals hands, but... freedom comes with a price and that is that each will also be responsible for their own efforts.

You may think this cruel as there will be those who choose not to excel, those who have a hard time at it, and those who it comes easy to. All can be in each others positions depending on the choices they make. This is why some poor people become rich, and some rich people who have all the opportunities, but end up poor. Each is responsible to their own decisions.
 
Old 07-26-2010, 09:43 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
The variation of skill is vast. A persons intelligence or education does not always determine a persons income or success. I was making only around 45k a year doing extensive reading and programming. I had to stay up on my topic constantly, reading around 50-100 tech books a year. It was very hard and detailed work that required a certain level of knowledge and ability and yet...

My cousin was working construction pulling in 80-100k a year because he had is own skill sets. He had a hard time reading a news paper, much less a tech book and yet he excelled rather well.

I knew another person who started her own business. She liked to make those fake flower decorations. She wasn't overly intelligent, dropped out of high school and her flowers were not anything extremely skillful in talent, she simply liked doing it and people bought them. She pulled in over 90 thousand dollars one year.

My grandfather has an 8th grade education and yet he did very well for himself as a contractor working his way up because he was a hard worker, no quit, always on type of guy to which insured that the job always got done, no matter how difficult the obstacle.


The point is, I have seen ambition, dedication, perseverance, etc... trump skill. Sometimes people just need to try, take a risk, and find what works for them. Will everyone be at the same level? Will everyone succeed? No, there are always those who will not for various reasons. Some will be because of some tough breaks in their life, others will be because of their choice.

The point is, each is free to pursue what is best for them and other than some "special" cases, each will be exactly in their life where they have chosen to be. This puts the freedom in each individuals hands, but... freedom comes with a price and that is that each will also be responsible for their own efforts.

You may think this cruel as there will be those who choose not to excel, those who have a hard time at it, and those who it comes easy to. All can be in each others positions depending on the choices they make. This is why some poor people become rich, and some rich people who have all the opportunities, but end up poor. Each is responsible to their own decisions.
I don't share your naive views regarding freedom bla bla bla. Many people are not even able to decide what is best for them as they never got a chance to find out what they like or are good at in the first place. I know several people who were pushed towards certain professions by their parents and turned out unhappy later on, regretting the years they wasted and the chances missed.
The reasons why some people get rich are others in my view. But being rich should not be a goal in life anyway.
 
Old 07-26-2010, 10:11 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,928,755 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
I don't share your naive views regarding freedom bla bla bla.
Naive? Some would say that a person who originates from a country who produced one of the worlds leading criminals against humanity and promotes subservience to government is naive. You don't respect freedom because you are too busy trying to force people to conform to your ideal. Those of us who do have freedom and the common sense to realize its quality are not fooled by your sale. We see it for what it is, forced servitude to a master be it a government, a person, or a mob.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Many people are not even able to decide what is best for them as they never got a chance to find out what they like or are good at in the first place. I know several people who were pushed towards certain professions by their parents and turned out unhappy later on, regretting the years they wasted and the chances missed.
The reasons why some people get rich are others in my view. But being rich should not be a goal in life anyway.
Many people are capable of deciding what is best for them. In your example, you claim your friends were "pushed" by their parents, yet they had a choice all along. Their parents did not choose for them, they choose to do as their parents told them. The fault lies at their own feet. They had a choice, and chose to listen to another than to follow their own.

The key issue with your position is the failure to accept responsibility. This way, people who make poor decisions can claim it is not their fault, because you seem to think having other people tell you what to do is better than risking the consequence of making that decision for yourself.

I know what is best for me, you do not. I know myself far better than you could ever know me. You have no authority over me, nor do you have any right to dictate to me how I shall live and the decisions I will make. This is a key point of freedom, one to which our ancestors bled over and one to which I will defend by blood as well.

Your position disregards individual life. It tosses them around like it is a piece of meat all the while feigning concern for people and proclaiming wonders of humanity. Americans have tasted freedom, we know what it entails. While some may be willing to sell themselves into bondage to serve your nefarious purpose, many will not and those who would seek to strip us of our freedoms will have the fight of their lives for they surely will suffer the wrath of those who truly endear freedom and do not simply pay it mention with words and claims of the collective good.
 
Old 07-26-2010, 10:13 AM
 
22,768 posts, read 30,670,896 times
Reputation: 14737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
In my view the whole poverty problem and approaches to solve revolve around this: Humans vary quite a bit in terms of intelligence, ambition, skills etc. It would be naive to deny that, nor can we change much beyond a certain degree. Now, since we have complex, competitive societies and economic systems, where basically there is no real demand for people who have deficits in the aforementioned aspects, how are we to deal with those people. Do we punish them for their characteristics for which they probably are not to blame anyway? I don't think we should. Nor can we ignore them, else they will cause problems for all of society. Thus in my view we have to guarantee a certain quality of life especially to the least productive, intelligent, skilled etc.

One thing I noticed while traveling and conversing, is how Europeans have this attitude, that: "poor people are poor because they lack intelligence, that they are incapable, and that only a tiny fraction (1-5%) are just lazy."

This is the opposite of the American perspective, which is more of a narrative that: "everyone has similar potential, and some people are just lazy and make bad decisions, and should not be supported by those who work hard and make good decisions."

it is just a difference of perspective. To Americans, it looks like Europeans make excuses for laziness. We acknolwedge that some people are truly incapable and should be supported, we just differ in that we think these people are the tiny minority.
 
Old 07-26-2010, 10:13 AM
 
Location: Pinal County, Arizona
25,100 posts, read 39,197,274 times
Reputation: 4937
I will ALWAYS put my faith and trust in the hands of individuals versus the Government - with no exceptions.

When it comes to helping those less fortunate, people - private organizations, are always best equipped to get the help to those who need it - faster and more economically - than government ever could.
 
Old 07-26-2010, 10:30 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by le roi View Post
One thing I noticed while traveling and conversing, is how Europeans have this attitude, that: "poor people are poor because they lack intelligence, that they are incapable, and that only a tiny fraction (1-5%) are just lazy."

This is the opposite of the American perspective, which is more of a narrative that: "everyone has similar potential, and some people are just lazy and make bad decisions, and should not be supported by those who work hard and make good decisions."

it is just a difference of perspective. To Americans, it looks like Europeans make excuses for laziness. We acknolwedge that some people are truly incapable and should be supported, we just differ in that we think these people are the tiny minority.

Most lazy people are lazy for a reason, for instance because they hate the system others try to force them into and they see no sense in. That also applies to me to a certain extent, and indeed I am certainly lazy because I see no purpose in my profession. Thus I work as little as I can afford. And I am by far not the only one who feels that way.
Most lazy people I know are more intelligent than workaholics.
 
Old 07-26-2010, 10:38 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,956 posts, read 24,675,783 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Naive? Some would say that a person who originates from a country who produced one of the worlds leading criminals against humanity and promotes subservience to government is naive. You don't respect freedom because you are too busy trying to force people to conform to your ideal. Those of us who do have freedom and the common sense to realize its quality are not fooled by your sale. We see it for what it is, forced servitude to a master be it a government, a person, or a mob.




Many people are capable of deciding what is best for them. In your example, you claim your friends were "pushed" by their parents, yet they had a choice all along. Their parents did not choose for them, they choose to do as their parents told them. The fault lies at their own feet. They had a choice, and chose to listen to another than to follow their own.

The key issue with your position is the failure to accept responsibility. This way, people who make poor decisions can claim it is not their fault, because you seem to think having other people tell you what to do is better than risking the consequence of making that decision for yourself.

I know what is best for me, you do not. I know myself far better than you could ever know me. You have no authority over me, nor do you have any right to dictate to me how I shall live and the decisions I will make. This is a key point of freedom, one to which our ancestors bled over and one to which I will defend by blood as well.

Your position disregards individual life. It tosses them around like it is a piece of meat all the while feigning concern for people and proclaiming wonders of humanity. Americans have tasted freedom, we know what it entails. While some may be willing to sell themselves into bondage to serve your nefarious purpose, many will not and those who would seek to strip us of our freedoms will have the fight of their lives for they surely will suffer the wrath of those who truly endear freedom and do not simply pay it mention with words and claims of the collective good.
No, many people who get pushed by their parents don't have a choice because they don't want to disappoint their parents, etc.
A lot of students in Germany for instance are sent to the most difficult type of high-school (Gymnasium) just so that they can attend university later on. But to many a kid that kind of school is torture as they are just not intelligent and/or ambitious enough. That decision which type of high-school to attend is made after the 4th grade, so children cannot decide.
 
Old 07-26-2010, 10:51 AM
 
13,053 posts, read 12,928,755 times
Reputation: 2618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
No, many people who get pushed by their parents don't have a choice because they don't want to disappoint their parents, etc.
Umm... That is a "choice". They don't "want" to disappoint their parents, which implies they have an option. They choose not to disappoint their parents, so they do as their parents tell them. Hence, a choice.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
A lot of students in Germany for instance are sent to the most difficult type of high-school (Gymnasium) just so that they can attend university later on. But to many a kid that kind of school is torture as they are just not intelligent and/or ambitious enough. That decision which type of high-school to attend is made after the 4th grade, so children cannot decide.
They can once they are of age choose as they wish. There is always a choice.
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