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Old 07-28-2010, 10:39 AM
 
768 posts, read 1,087,909 times
Reputation: 343

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So you decide to add a deck to your house or perhaps an addition. Maybe you plan to build a garage on your property. But wait! Before you hammer that first nail, or cut that first piece of lumber, you had better gone and acquired that building permit and of course paid the fee. Now, I am not going to use the standard argument people use for sidestepping the whole process building permits for home improvements or additions. You know, "it's my property, I should be able to do with it as I please." No, while I can't find too much to argue with in that logic, I'm going to come at this from a different angle.

Supposedly these permits are required so as to ensure that the work is being done properly and up to code. Although many years ago when I was a home owner and added an addition to my existing deck, I don't remember anyone from the city coming around to inspect the work. I just remember paying the fee and acquiring and posting the permit to satisfy my former spouse who wanted to ensure (to my objections) that every jot and tittle of the ordinance was complied with. But I also remember my former father in law, a man of principle and backbone, adding an addition to his home and ""forgetting" to get a permit. Well a busybody neighbor whose existence was so pitiful as to render her incapable of doing anything but seething in envy decided to call the authorities and my father in laws work was immediately halted and fines were levied, not to mention that the authorities took their good old time before allowing him to continue his work. All this because he had the "audacity" to improve his home without first having permission granted by the all mighty city fathers.

Anyway, enough personal history. The standard justification proffered by the powers that be for requiring permits for home improvements is that it is for the safety of the home owner and any future owners of that property. I guess we can't trust that the person who lives in the property and has the most invested in it would have enough concern for his or her safety and that of his or her family as to be certain to make sure the job is done right. Anyway, granting that, if concern for the safety and well being of the present and future occupants of the property is the primary motivation for requiring permits, why would this concern trump, say the need for food? So the authorities are so concerned for the health and welfare of the property owner that they will not allow the owner to make improvements without their approval, but if their concern is so deep and far reaching, why not don't the authorities make regular visits to our homeowner to inquire if her and her family are well fed? I mean it's all about concern for their welfare and safety, right? There couldn't be any other reasons why these permits are required, right? Well then, why limit the concern to a well built deck or home addition?

And what of those such as my father in law who are required to pay fines for their obstinacy? If the fines create a financial hardship making the purchase of necessities difficult or impossible, then the goal of the all loving and benevolent state is undermined. It seems to me that the State and all government agencies are always justifying their imposition on people as a result of their caring and concern for the well being of the citizenry, yet the things that the State concerns itself with are always the periphery things that are low on the list of importance. Why is that? The government wants to make certain that our decks are built to code (and makes some money in fees in the process), but doesn't concern itself with making certain that our food supply is adequate. So is it really concern for safety, or opportunism that drives this process? Is it just another opportunity for the State to flex its muscle and try to fool the people into believing that its existence is necessary and justified. The fact is when you get down to where the rubber meets the road, we are all left to ourselves and are required to make our own way. The State is conspicuously absent when one really needs assistance, an empty refrigerator doesn't get their attention; but just start making home improvements and suddenly you will be under the microscope.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Great Falls, Montana
4,002 posts, read 3,904,593 times
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Well, if people want to build substandard, I say let 'em have at it .. we'll just end up looking like the shanty towns of Mexico or Thailand .. upon after being in the building industry for over 40 years, I am constantly amazed at just how few there are in this country that knows anything about structural engineering, much less anyone knowing how to build something that won't fall down in 5 years.

Building permits .. sure .. they are very necessary in order to ensure that someone who really does know something about building looks at the work .. if it's substandard? .. Well, then lets tear it down and fix it right.

The fee has more to do with paying for the city/county administrative costs, than it does anything else .. surely you don't think cities and counties are turning a profit on the fees do you? .. If they did, no one would be building anything for the expense of it all.

People, by and large, aren't really very bright when it comes right down to building something, like say, a house addition for instance .. the city/county are there to be sure things are done right, according to tried and true engineering specs .. and to protect the homeowner from himself and his ego .. also to protect the homeowners neighbors from the homeowners ego.

We can rail all day long about the permitting process, whether it's fair or not and so on and so forth .. the bottom line here is how would you feel if your neighbor built a home addition, only to have it's roof come off in a 40 mph wind storm, and have it land on top of your house? .. or, not having the deck secured properly enough to keep poor old 280 pound aunt Bertha from falling through it at the Sunday family get-together ..

I could go on, but I'm fairly sure you've gotten my point.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:12 AM
 
Location: No Mask For Me This Time, Either
5,660 posts, read 5,087,209 times
Reputation: 6086
Don't forget the ongoing benefit to the municipality of increased taxes when the assessment goes up. A house with a finished basement, properly permitted and inspected, is worth more than one without. And that's a permanent increase.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Great Falls, Montana
4,002 posts, read 3,904,593 times
Reputation: 1398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Workin_Hard View Post
Don't forget the ongoing benefit to the municipality of increased taxes when the assessment goes up. A house with a finished basement, properly permitted and inspected, is worth more than one without. And that's a permanent increase.
Just think of how much more money you get turning a house over with a finished bsmt as opposed to one that doesn't ..
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,478,139 times
Reputation: 9618
they say its for safety...but its for increasing your taxes
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Up in the air
19,112 posts, read 30,623,707 times
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I wonder if anyone has bought a house with additions or 'improvements' that are non-permitted and unsafe?

I've seen quite a few... and it's not pretty. Building permits are one of the few things I'm in complete agreement with.
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,478,139 times
Reputation: 9618
i've seen plenty of 'improvements' that WERE PERMITTED, and were still unsafe, neglectful, done by incompetent 'professionals'...

i've seen plenty of building inspectors inspect the work from inside the cab of their vehicle or office, too


permits are a sham...just require an underwriting for all work....not by a government, worker.....
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Old 07-28-2010, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Up in the air
19,112 posts, read 30,623,707 times
Reputation: 16395
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
i've seen plenty of 'improvements' that WERE PERMITTED, and were still unsafe, neglectful, done by incompetent 'professionals'...

i've seen plenty of building inspectors inspect the work from inside the cab of their vehicle or office, too


permits are a sham...just require an underwriting for all work....not by a government, worker.....
So because you've seen a few unsafe permitted improvements we should just do away with the entire system?

I can just see the rash of lawsuits to multiple different companies because an idiot homeowner didn't build something right and either gets electrocuted, falls through a roof, falls through a floor etc. etc. It already happens, but I can guarantee it will increase by leaps and bounds.
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Old 07-28-2010, 12:06 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,040,586 times
Reputation: 15038
Quote:
Originally Posted by JetJockey View Post
I wonder if anyone has bought a house with additions or 'improvements' that are non-permitted and unsafe?

I've seen quite a few... and it's not pretty. Building permits are one of the few things I'm in complete agreement with.
Since we are tellling personal stories. One of the homes that I bought had an addition with a flat roof and skylight. Well the skylight amongst other things led to a major roof leak which destroyed some of the interior walls. When we took out the soaked drywall low and behold we discovered that all most of the supporting studs were rotted away, why because of inproper insullation between the exterior stucco and the studs. Then we discovered that the entire structure was based upon four 4x4 studs sunk into the patio as if they were fence posts.

Clearly none of this was done to code, nor had it ever been inspected, nor was any of this detectable until we tore apart the interior walls. The previous owner hadn't done the work so the they nor the realetor could be held responsible for non-disclosure. And yes, we had a very competent contractor inspect the home prior to purchase.

The moral of the story is that a friend and I with a few sub-contractors had to demolish the entire structure, excavate the patio, pour a new foundation, frame, stucco and reroof the addition. The new owners got a home with this new addition and the security of mind that the new structure would safely withstand a Andrew like hurricaine becasue we assiduously abided by Florida's stringent building code and had it inspected at every step of the way (sometime having to correct errors that we had made). When we sold the home we fully recouped the cost of the repairs.

It was well worth it, right and ethical.
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Old 07-28-2010, 12:08 PM
 
Location: NH Lakes Region
407 posts, read 1,558,777 times
Reputation: 539
I have to admit that I agree - it's a money thing. The bottom line is that they get a fee (nominal or not) and then have an eye out for upgrades in the property that an be taxed forever. In my experience the building inspectors come out BEFORE the work is done to discuss it, the fees are paid... and I have yet to see one come back to inspect the job. You can bet that newly insulated "room" is now counting as square footage on your assessment!

The other things that has astounded me, especially in some of the smaller towns, is the cronyism and old-boy network involved in getting some permits "approved" and some not... it really is an amazing process.
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