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This has been debunked time and again.
Check out snopes or the dozens of other sites that have addressed this.
BTW, remember Calley?
Remember Mai Lai?
Were there not baby killers among them.
Different war, there was a draft.
There is no draft now.
Repeating falsehoods says a lot more about the poster than being too lazy to look up the truth.
So my friend a Vietnam Vet imagine the spit, that he got when he came back home.
There are baby killers also among people that are not among the military, like any other segment of the population.
You really don't understand the sacrifices made by members of the US military and why they automatically deserve respect as a whole?
Is this an intentional act of obtuseness?
Nope.
They choose the life.
It’s an all volunteer military.
Please tell me why you don't already know this? You don't have to agree with any of the reasons, but you really should acknowledge the specific reasons that have been repeated over and over and over again, even right here, on CD.
Irrelevant.
They choose to join the military, they are not victims of it.
Please tell me why Clinton, Kerry, Pelosi, Kennedy, etc. all supported those "specific reasons" you don't know anything about UNTIL election time rolled around.... and they needed a way to disparage the sitting POTUS (even though they backed his decisions) so they could get their "party" back into power. GWB was the ONLY person who had intel that stated the middle east was a prime vacation spot for tourists?
Try some history.
Yellow cake, WMD, all lies perpetrated on everyone by the Bush administration.
That’s still no answer as to why people join up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by conc1
Support the troops means sending them care packages, volunteer to pack them. Organize school kids to have a letter writing campaign for them. Etc. It's not an empty slogan for some people.
Your opinion only.
The only way to support them would be to end stupid wars.
Sending cookies, oh yeah, that’s a bonus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureBrennanDad
As a former Marine who served in Desert Storm, I will tell you he had WMD and he used them on his own people. Also I firmly believe he used them during Desert Storm as well. You never answered my question on how it is an illegal war that was stated earlier, you just changed to why this is our war. It is our war because he was a threat and we will have to disagree apparently but I would much rather eliminate an actual threat before they have a chance to hurt innocent Americans. I hope you have a peaceful and happy life and I will not be getting into a long winded debate with you since I can tell your mind is made up as is mine.
You saw them? Funny, the international community of inspectors and the US government don’t think so.
Years before, certainly. NOT IN 2003. It is an internal issue, not a reason for the US to attack a sovereign nation.
It was never a declared WAR and I’m not the one who made the comment about illegal.
Saddam Hussein was no threat to the US.
Why not just kill everyone who doesn’t live in the US if it is your opinion that we should attack countries who have not committed an act of war against the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustmaker
And you live where?
I’m an American citizen currently living abroad.
Not that it matters.
I pay lots of taxes and vote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FutureBrennanDad
I would say that supporting the troops is alot more than letter writing campaigns and care packages it also includes helping the family members left here. One less worry on a service member will make a world of difference. It is hard enough to go overseas but with added stress of wondering how the family left back stateside will be taken care of without them home. We need to make sure we are aware of the families in our own communities that have brave men and women fighting, and see if they need anything from us. Actually, I feel we should know all of our neighbors and be ready to help all whether they are military or not. It does not take a village, but sometimes just one helping hand.
They made a personal choice to join the military, knowing what was in store for them.
It’s wartime.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colddiamond102
THEY didnt choose the war. THEY didnt say "Ok, we go bomb country x,y, and then z, because xyz did this" The politicians did.They chose a job, albiet a job with risks, but still a job...the crackpot politicians chose the war. One is a Medic...He does his job with the Army because he says he likes helping people in other countries that really need it, with people that would otherwise never get a chance at even seeing a doctor. He likes traveling new places.
…
BTW: I respect ANY job, civilian or military, that requires you to work 19 hour shifts on 2 hours a day sleep at times, and that at times may require that person to risk their own neck for some ungrateful pis$ant.
As to the families, we dont choose the life. We choose the person. We deal with and adapt to the life that comes with it...Some of us have the cojones to do so, some dont.
They chose a job where they would go to war.
There is no draft, it is all volunteer.
You choose the life you lead.
You’re saying that you have no input into your marriage and careers.
You’re not a “victim” to it. Choices. It’s all about choices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustmaker
But they really should acknowledge the bigger picture based on historical evidence of how hippies/liberals/pacifists/the anti-war folks supported troops in the past by spitting on them, lobbing insults and physical objects at them, etc. Like it was their fault?
Again, debunked numerous times.
I guess you can repeat these falsehoods again and again, but most of us won’t fall for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by conc1
It means all of the above, and much more.
But, even if you disagree with the war, you still need to support the worrier.
And that's my bone.
Some people here will not respect the soldiers because they choose to join the army.
You could argue that the fire fighters choose their profession, but some here will not respect them for going into a building that most people would get out of.
Go figure
Why would I respect a firefighter? Just because he’s a firefighter?
He does help people, war does not.
But people/groups earn respect; it’s not a given.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustmaker
Let's get back to the 2000s.
All Saddam had to do was show proof that he destroyed the WMDs. He didn't. He was giving $25K to suicide bombers at the time. He hosted terrorists who attacked the US even before 9/11. He hosted AQ training camps in his country. He kicked the UNWI's out of Iraq, he wouldn't let them do their job. Now does that sound like a man with NOTHING to hide? Really? Does it? Really?
{color=”red”]Really, how about some links to this nonsense?[/color]
But WMDs , well, they were found. Probably wouldn't all deploy, but the were found. Why don't you know this? Liberal media didn't report it? Liberal media didn't show the satellite convoys of Iraqi military vehicles sneaking into Iraqi military facilities under the cover of night and heading to Syria? These were the same points of interest that Saddam wouldn't let the UNWI's inspect. He took all his active crap and stuck it in another country.
You don't have to agree with the war, just acknowledge the facts. And then take into consideration the UN countries protesting the loudest were found to have back-door deals with Iraq during the sanctions. Why didn't that get more exposure?
Apparently you forgot about Hans Blik and the inspectors that Bush interfered with it.
There were a few drums of decades old chemicals found that were ineffective.
That gave the US the right to kill over 100k Iraqi’s?
I’ll acknowledge facts when they’re presented, not until then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustmaker
Look it up yourself.
No link = lie.
You made the assertion, you need to provide the link when challenged.
Or are you just posting more falsehoods?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sawdustmaker
Look up Hanoi Jane.
And you live in the US, correct? So you have a dog in this fight?
Yep, a tax paying American.
I’m not doing your research for you. Don’t you get it?
Of course I have a dog in this fight; I pay taxes.
Geez, fella, what’s up with this line of reasoning?
Quote:
Originally Posted by conc1
Just out of curiosity is there any job you respect?
Maybe fighter, or policeman, or paramedic, or do you think that all job are creates equal?
I am not even go into the reason for being in the Middle East because we have been through it in other thread, and we are not going to change each other mind.
Respect is earned.
No, I don’t “respect” any job; well perhaps Doctors without Borders and careers that help and support people who can’t help themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by conc1
So my friend a Vietnam Vet imagine the spit, that he got when he came back home.
There are baby killers also among people that are not among the military, like any other segment of the population.
Only history would tell what would be the end.
You can not say that the people here that are supporting the troops are blind.
And yes the Taliban are considering themselves Patriots or soldiers of Islam fighting a world Jihad.
And you are right about the other governments in the third world, and do you see any UN resolution condemning them?
This thread was not about whether we like them or agree with them, but whether the OP has a point or not, in his "argument" the we need to lose in order to end the war.
First of all, clearly, training the Mujahideen (Operation Cyclone) was a stupid move, and I don't really think we need any more historical distance to make that conclusion given the current circumstances plus the fact that Russia was doomed to fail from the start.
Anyways, the original post was about whether supporting the troops meant supporting the war and wanting it to succeed. My point is that one's position should probably be a bit more nuanced than that, but we should acknowledge the rhetorical confusion between valuing the lives of our soldiers, respecting whatever services they might provide for us, and wanting the war the soldiers are conducting to ultimately succeed.
For instance, which would you rather have occur:
The immediate end of all combat operations in Afghanistan, which I guess would constitute "a loss" (such a word seems overly simplistic in this instance)
OR:
The death of a thousand more soldiers (and let's say about two thousand more Afghani troops, 5,000 more Afghani civilians) but the achievement of whatever your conditions of victory are.
In this hypothetical scenario, MY idea of supporting the troops would be the first, because it means fewer soldiers would die. The second option, and let's say my condition of victory would be the erection of a progressive, secular government, would be great, but the war was not initiated on those terms. In my opinion, we are still there primarily because of the cowardice of our politicians, particularly our current POTUS, not out of any really empathy for the Afghani people. In such an absurd situation, supporting the troops, in my mind, means militating for their immediate return home.
So you think our soldiers are mindless, brain washed young people, who can not think for themselves, and WWI was the last necessary war.
You probably meant WWII.
Do you remember how we won there? We killed many people until the enemy said "stop it we lost".
That how we win a war, when the other side surrender.
No, I meant WWl. We were funding the nazi's, making lots of interest money and also selling arms to them and all was hunky dory until Pearl Harbor- which was known about but ALLOWED to happen to garner support for entering the war from US citizens. More money to be made after funding both sides- to join in with the winning side. I don't even want to get started on Viet Nam- God help us.
Give me ONE good reason why we have lost over 4,000 and have many thousands of injured and permanently maimed for these 9 year long military actions in the middle east. What freedoms have been preserved? Actually freedoms have been LOST via the "Patriot Act", etc.
If some faction wanted to hit is here, they would have, and will if they want to. Us being over there does not stop that possibility. We are not engaging a country- but mobile and scattered rogues. Might as well spend thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and 9 years to herd cats.
It is a totally senseless (except to those who profit) money making scheme. If we wanted to "win" by killing enough people- we could have done that 10 times over by now. We have killed over 300,000 Iraqi and Afghan innocent civilians. 300,000!!!
And, yes, youngsters are encouraged and programmed to feel that war is noble/fun/justified/a job/an education/a game/a patriotic duty/an exotic tour of the world/an honor/etc. They are trained to hate people they don't even know and desensitized to the point of being able to kill as though they were aiming at video game targets. Look at TV, look at military families who pass the "values" down, look at video games, look at propaganda, look at history, look at toys.
I'm not saying there is no possibility of a noble and necessary war, but although, in my lifetime and beyond, we've been not 10 minutes without a war somewhere, none of them have been noble. The two we're in now are not even legal.
In my little world, all your loved ones would still be with us, or at least would not be gone due to a brutal, needless "war". We would be creating jobs, rebuilding infrastructure, cleaning up and restoring our once beautiful cities, and investing in education among the many, many wonderful things we could provide for our youth and our future.
Obama's wars are an absolute waste of human life and money. That is not the fault of our troops. It's a leadership issue. We have a boy leader who doesn't have a clue as to what to do.
Obama didn't start these wars, get that notion out of your head. Obama is hard at work trying to scrape the doo-doo off of George's butt.
Bush got us into this mess, Barry is trying to get us out. Get your Republican head together and incidentally, your term-"boy" is terribly outdated.
See if you can get used to the thought that a black man will guide your destiny and if you cannot accept that fact gracefully, then, shut your
rebel pie-hole. If we need your advice, we'll tap on your cage but until that day, live with it ...
Am I the only one who doesn't support the wars and our troops? I don't understand how some people say they're against the wars but they support our troops. How can that be? As far as I'm concerned, supporting our troops means you want them to win, right? So, if you support our troops and want them to win, you must support the wars too. Am I being illogical?
No. You are not alone. Many posts in this thread are evidence of that.
And no. You are not being illogical.
Going back to the first Iraq war, I didn't support the war and by extention the troops. Our nation, our freedoms, were never at risk. Nor are they now. Iraq and Afganistan do not, and have not, ever posed a threat to the U.S. We were never attacked by either of these nations.
As has been mentioned in this thread those serving in the military do so at will and most for personal gain. For those that come from economically or socially stressed backgrounds military life is a good deal. But there are other ways to get an education and/or serve your country.
I already support the troops through my taxes. I feel no further obligation to support them morally or any other way.
No, I meant WWl. We were funding the nazi's, making lots of interest money and also selling arms to them and all was hunky dory until Pearl Harbor- which was known about but ALLOWED to happen to garner support for entering the war from US citizens. More money to be made after funding both sides- to join in with the winning side. I don't even want to get started on Viet Nam- God help us.
Give me ONE good reason why we have lost over 4,000 and have many thousands of injured and permanently maimed for these 9 year long military actions in the middle east. What freedoms have been preserved? Actually freedoms have been LOST via the "Patriot Act", etc.
If some faction wanted to hit is here, they would have, and will if they want to. Us being over there does not stop that possibility. We are not engaging a country- but mobile and scattered rogues. Might as well spend thousands of lives, trillions of dollars and 9 years to herd cats.
It is a totally senseless (except to those who profit) money making scheme. If we wanted to "win" by killing enough people- we could have done that 10 times over by now. We have killed over 300,000 Iraqi and Afghan innocent civilians. 300,000!!!
And, yes, youngsters are encouraged and programmed to feel that war is noble/fun/justified/a job/an education/a game/a patriotic duty/an exotic tour of the world/an honor/etc. They are trained to hate people they don't even know and desensitized to the point of being able to kill as though they were aiming at video game targets. Look at TV, look at military families who pass the "values" down, look at video games, look at propaganda, look at history, look at toys.
I'm not saying there is no possibility of a noble and necessary war, but although, in my lifetime and beyond, we've been not 10 minutes without a war somewhere, none of them have been noble. The two we're in now are not even legal.
In my little world, all your loved ones would still be with us, or at least would not be gone due to a brutal, needless "war". We would be creating jobs, rebuilding infrastructure, cleaning up and restoring our once beautiful cities, and investing in education among the many, many wonderful things we could provide for our youth and our future.
Oh boy!
In case you forgot Germany declared war on us.
Had we not joined the war you would be speaking German now, and Barak Obama would never be the President, not being in the right race.
Racism would be over since there will be only one race.
In regards to the Mugahadin yes it was a mistake, America by all means is not perfect we make mistake about the same as any other nation.
But, we are not an imperialist nation. We free people.
We helped more Muslims, but they will never acknowledge it as a nation.
Only as individuals.
The numbers of civilians casualties are probably from some anti war site, therefore are blown to make a point.
You blame us for propaganda maybe you should look at this clip. Dailymotion - Pakistani Madarasas, `Jihad Factories
There was not another attack after 9/11 on this soil, they were mostly foiled, and only some now under Obama actually were successful.
The fact of the matter is that they are busy with our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, fighting for their lives, and for control and therefore don't have the capability to strike here again.
Try some history.
Yellow cake, WMD, all lies perpetrated on everyone by the Bush administration.
That’s still no answer as to why people join up.
Your opinion only.
The only way to support them would be to end stupid wars.
Sending cookies, oh yeah, that’s a bonus.
You saw them? Funny, the international community of inspectors and the US government don’t think so.
Years before, certainly. NOT IN 2003. It is an internal issue, not a reason for the US to attack a sovereign nation.
It was never a declared WAR and I’m not the one who made the comment about illegal.
Saddam Hussein was no threat to the US.
Why not just kill everyone who doesn’t live in the US if it is your opinion that we should attack countries who have not committed an act of war against the US.
I’m an American citizen currently living abroad.
Not that it matters.
I pay lots of taxes and vote.
They made a personal choice to join the military, knowing what was in store for them.
It’s wartime.
They chose a job where they would go to war.
There is no draft, it is all volunteer.
You choose the life you lead.
You’re saying that you have no input into your marriage and careers.
You’re not a “victim” to it. Choices. It’s all about choices.
Again, debunked numerous times.
I guess you can repeat these falsehoods again and again, but most of us won’t fall for it.
Why would I respect a firefighter? Just because he’s a firefighter?
He does help people, war does not.
But people/groups earn respect; it’s not a given.
Apparently you forgot about Hans Blik and the inspectors that Bush interfered with it.
There were a few drums of decades old chemicals found that were ineffective.
That gave the US the right to kill over 100k Iraqi’s?
I’ll acknowledge facts when they’re presented, not until then.
No link = lie.
You made the assertion, you need to provide the link when challenged.
Or are you just posting more falsehoods?
Yep, a tax paying American.
I’m not doing your research for you. Don’t you get it?
Of course I have a dog in this fight; I pay taxes.
Geez, fella, what’s up with this line of reasoning?
Respect is earned.
No, I don’t “respect” any job; well perhaps Doctors without Borders and careers that help and support people who can’t help themselves.
Anecdote does not equal data.
Playing some revisionist history here?
Clearly you don't really understand what a package means for a soldier. Coming home would be much nicer of course, but since it is not my decision or yours, or even his, at least we can help them coop.
I only going back to the question of respect for certain profession.
So, when a fire brake and you call 911, and expect total stranger to risk their lives to save your home, you actually don't respect him.
That is interesting.
Just make sure to tell them that you don't respect them for their choice of a job before they come in that.
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