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The church in general is the last place anyone should go to seek guidance. As a catholic I know that celibate priests are so screwed up that they become the very people who they claim are sinful. The institution of Christianity is dangerously astray from the very person\ God they claim to worship.
I'm catholic too, so yes, I totally agree.
I just wrote that as a general this is a true Christian statement, to upset the righties.
I am from Illinois. I oppose civil unions and same-sex marriage. I favor a constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage at both the state and federal level. Illinois presently has statutes barring same-sex marriage and civil unions. Most large businesses in Illinois provide reciprocal benefits, which I have no quarrels with.
I am very disappointed by the decision by the federal judge in this case because he was unable to put the arguments of the attorneys and his personal beliefs and situation aside and rule on the law and the constitution.
To me the argument to uphold the California constitutional amendment is clear. The freedom and liberty of persons whom consider themselves homosexual to marry a man or a woman is not inhibited, so long as they marry a person of the opposite gender. In California specifically, in no way was a person entered into a union with same-sex partners disadvantaged under the law. Government is involved in marriage because it felt it did have an incentive in providing for a committed environment for rearing children, something homosexual couples cannot do naturally.
The real debate here is whether homosexuality is a protected class, an innate characteristic, etc. And under the law and precedent behavior, preferences, desires, etc. are not protected under the equal protections clause. The 14th amendment is designed to ensure the freedoms and liberties of people based on race, and truthfully race alone. It was put into place in response to Black Codes. (This is a recurring theme of left-wing groups and movements trying to use tools and laws put into place to prevent discrimination against African-Americans to advance their own agendas). We do not protect criminal behavior, we do not protect zoophilia, we do not protect pedophilia, we do not protect, allow, or recognize polygamy.
With the broad view of the 14th amendment with regard to personal freedoms, liberty, and discrimination we are potentially opening a can of worms of epic proportions. No matter what your view on same-sex marriage is you must realize what a dangerous ruling that has gone down here by trying to use the court system to win same-sex marriage.
I do hope that the Supreme Court, as well as the 9th Circuit considers the consequences when ruling on Proposition 8 if they hear the case. Also, in making comparisons to Canada, please understand that Canada's situation did not have similar implications as we could see with our case of the 14th amendment.
I'm in favor of banning uneducated people with low IQ's from having the privelege of voting against the equal rights of other United State's citizens!
There are many ways to accomplish, population control.
two can play that game...
and there are many ways to raise children.. even if that means two gay men or two gay women taking them into their household and loving them and providing for them.. picking up the shattered pieces of a mess left behind by ungrateful selfish straight people...
I don't like to think of myself as being a means to population control.. I'm a person!! I have value! it's easy to sit and condemn and point fingers and pass laws that HURT others when it's just some "group" it's a much different story when you have to actually walk up to a person and tell them they are a second class citizen, and that their families aren't worthy of the same protections as yours.. if the people who voted for prop 8 had to actually do that.. it wouldn't have passed.. in spite of it all.. I do believe on a personal level MOST people are good..
Civil unions are regulated and licensed by the state as well. Why did you choose not to address that and the differences between the two (civil union vs. marriage) in your post? Is it that painful to actually admit that there is traditionally a religious sacrement recognized with marriage?
Have you actually taken the time to research the history of marriage as an institution? It existed as a societal construct, utterly lacking in religious overtones, long before it became a religious sacrament. That's a fairly recent development in the history of humanity... that's why I didn't bother to address it... because if you want to go with "traditionally," then "traditionally" the institution as a societal construct, rather than a religious sacrament, is considerably stronger and lengthier in existence.
Civil union, marriage, whatever the word - it is the institution itself, of being joined as a couple in a contract under the law, with the same rights and benefits extended to those involved in the contract, that GLBTs are fighting for. Personally, I don't care WHAT it is called, as long as the process for obtaining those rights and the recognition thereof is the same for every adult couple, regardless of gender.
In this country, and most others, we refer to that societal construct as "marriage." I'm totally ok with changing the name for it - as long as it is changed for everyone and the process, and rights conveyed, are identical.
If people want to be able to get "married" in church, and understand that it gives them no legal standing whatsoever, while it takes a "civil union" to gain any legal protection for said joining - awesome, that's great.
But as long as "marriage" conveys legal rights and statuses that are denied to other consenting adults... I believe it must be freely and equally available to all.
This should come as no surprise to anyone following the case. The opposing side presented very weak (and in some cases non-existent arguments). This issue has been argued in the courts in one form or another for almost 20 years and the ruling has essentially been the same every time.
I wholeheartedly support the decision. My only fear is that this will turn into another Roe v. Wade. A majority of Americans supports access to abortion, but the decision is still held up by an angry minority as "judical activism." Long after a majority of the population comes to support gay marriage, this decision could become a similar rallying cry.
The reason moral disasters like abortion and gay marriage are rammed in the legal back door of the Supreme Court is specifically because the MAJORITY (see prop 8) do not want it. If the states wanted abortion to be legal prior to Roe they could have simply changed their state laws. The same is true of gay marriage. The MAJORITY spoke very clearly when they passed Prop 8. Now the angry minority seeks to overturn the will of the people in the courts. Nothing new here.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boiseguy
two can play that game...
and there are many ways to raise children.. even if that means two gay men or two gay women taking them into their household and loving them and providing for them.. picking up the shattered pieces of a mess left behind by ungrateful selfish straight people...
I don't like to think of myself as being a means to population control.. I'm a person!! I have value! it's easy to sit and condemn and point fingers and pass laws that HURT others when it's just some "group" it's a much different story when you have to actually walk up to a person and tell them they are a second class citizen, and that their families aren't worthy of the same protections as yours.. if the people who voted for prop 8 had to actually do that.. it wouldn't have passed.. in spite of it all.. I do believe on a personal level MOST people are good..
Don't look at this on a personal level, you'll fall down.
The government likes to control things. They will let the people win only when it is in the best interest of the government to do so.
What is the population like out in California. Are there complaints of over crowding? If so...homosexuals can't procreate. However, as you pointed out, they are most helpful in the adoption area.
ps: this isn't a game.
Last edited by Ellis Bell; 08-04-2010 at 11:43 PM..
Reason: ps
Don't look at this on a personal level, you'll fall down.
The government likes to control things. They will let the people win only when it is in the best interest of the government to do so.
What is the population like out in California. Are there complaints of over crowding? If so...homosexuals can't procreate. However, as you pointed out, they are most helpful in the adoption area.
ps: this isn't a game.
the government doesn't care about who gets married to who.. PEOPLE do.. and they've voted on other PEOPLE's access to rights..
it's not like president bush declared law on the subject like a dictator..
Conservatives give government too much credit.. most of the bull$hit in government is by fault of a rampant ignorant/fickle voting population..
these people that claim "the will of the people" couldn't even pass a basic civics class.. and the leaders of these conservative conspiracy spins know it.. and they just keep repeating it and repeating it.. and the ignorant masses eventually believe it....hell.. they got their own noise box for it.. fox news.. it's disgraceful
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