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Old 08-20-2010, 11:35 AM
 
Location: SW US
172 posts, read 398,755 times
Reputation: 216

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U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

An interesting read:
Adam Smith's Prophecy: Today's Sovereign Debt Crisis

Anyone think about: How much is too much before indebtedness overwhelms our national stability? How much more dependent shall we become borrowing from nation states with whom we have basic philosophical and moral disagreements? Will today's youth become more shackled by indebtedness than their parents?

- I would rather be governed by the first three hundred names in the Boston telephone book than by the Faculty of Harvard University. William F. Buckley

Last edited by bongofury; 08-20-2010 at 11:53 AM..
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Old 08-20-2010, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,765 posts, read 27,204,256 times
Reputation: 12302
It is an interesting read, but also represents many contradictions, for example the expense related to defense and sustaining that immense military industrial complex of ours. Adam Smith himself was a nationalist when it came to capitalism (more on it and rest of the article later as I'm short on time).

One thing that I felt was incorrectly specified in the article was the interest on debt. From the little I've read, the article embarks on a bit of alarmist route than being honest in its assessment. It mentions $188 billion in interest payment on national debt growing to $860B by 2020. The problem there... we had paid $451B in 2008. And of course, differentiation must always be made whether we're using current dollars or constant dollars, anytime we speak of these numbers.
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Old 08-20-2010, 01:17 PM
 
26,288 posts, read 15,679,383 times
Reputation: 17107
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
It is an interesting read, but also represents many contradictions, for example the expense related to defense and sustaining that immense military industrial complex of ours. Adam Smith himself was a nationalist when it came to capitalism (more on it and rest of the article later as I'm short on time).

One thing that I felt was incorrectly specified in the article was the interest on debt. From the little I've read, the article embarks on a bit of alarmist route than being honest in its assessment. It mentions $188 billion in interest payment on national debt growing to $860B by 2020. The problem there... we had paid $451B in 2008. And of course, differentiation must always be made whether we're using current dollars or constant dollars, anytime we speak of these numbers.
Nonetheless, anyway you look at it, it is the road to insolvency.

The country must make a simple decision- accept that insolvency will occur and let anarchy preside, or markedly cut spending EVERYWHERE.

Estimates of servicing the debt depend on prevailing interest rates. At 4%, it is estimated that servicing the debt in 2020 will be $1 trillion. At 8%, that number rises to $2 trillion. Of course, there will be no more "treats" for the socialists to pass out when the lion's share of the annual budget goes to service the debt.

This unfortunate situation is the problem when individuals "with no skin in the game" can rob the treasury and vote themselves benefits. This is probably why only landowners and vets should be allowed to vote. No vested interest in the game- no vote.
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Old 08-20-2010, 01:19 PM
 
13,709 posts, read 8,951,995 times
Reputation: 6586
Cut spending, raise taxes, reform programs Americans are unwilling to cut, and quit spending over $1 trillion a year on the military. Done.
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Old 08-20-2010, 04:12 PM
 
Location: SW US
172 posts, read 398,755 times
Reputation: 216
Good replies all. So many examples of waste and counterproductive government programs weighing on American insolvency well into the foreseeable future. A molehill to the mountain of big ticket entitlement programs and defense spending I know, but it makes me furious that up to thirty percent of single family mortgage defaulters (estimated) can comfortably afford to meet their contractual obligations, but slink away instead because the financial decision didn't pan out as hoped. I wonder how many of these deadbeats moan about deficit spending/government spending having contributed to the problem.

Last edited by bongofury; 08-20-2010 at 04:20 PM..
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Old 08-20-2010, 04:38 PM
 
Location: My little patch of Earth
6,193 posts, read 5,058,360 times
Reputation: 3050
Cut ALL Congressional salaries AND pensions 50% immediately. Do it AGAIN next year.

Cut ALL government salaries 50% immediately. Gov employees make twice the private sector.

Cut ALL elected officials and government employees health care plans completely. They should get the same plan as the people get.

Military exempt from Colonels on down.

ALL Bills are to be published, read, examined and debated 6 months before voting on them.

All Bills 'rushed' or pushed thru by any other means should be rescinded.

NO agency can enact laws or restrictions upon the states, the public or any citizen without a Congressional vote.

NO pork spending in any bill allowed.

Send lobbyists packing.

Enact tougher sunset laws and enforce them.

Every entity funded by the taxpayer that gets money next year spends like mad so they get the same or more the next year. This needs to end.

End all bank, union, and corporate bail outs.

End funding other countries problems.

End funding of religious special interests.

End imminent domain by ALL government action, Federal. state and local.
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Old 08-20-2010, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,765 posts, read 27,204,256 times
Reputation: 12302
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongofury View Post
Good replies all. So many examples of waste and counterproductive government programs weighing on American insolvency well into the foreseeable future. A molehill to the mountain of big ticket entitlement programs and defense spending I know, but it makes me furious that up to thirty percent of single family mortgage defaulters (estimated) can comfortably afford to meet their contractual obligations, but slink away instead because the financial decision didn't pan out as hoped. I wonder how many of these deadbeats moan about deficit spending/government spending having contributed to the problem.
Deadbeats? These are fellow citizens who, I'm sure, are not enjoying hardship any more than you would in their position. Ever wondered about looking at the causes rather than blaming others and the government?

Let us start with entitlement program you speak of, and the defense. Provide a list, along with numbers, and the policies you support and guarantee a better quality of life as opposed to the pointing at the people suffering with impact of a deep recession as deadbeats. Then we can discuss.
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:04 PM
Status: "How long? Not Long." (set 9 days ago)
 
12,695 posts, read 7,792,786 times
Reputation: 9149
While I certainly have no easy answers (I do, however, support raising the retirement age for entitlement to Social Security retirement; I am 55 years old and have no problem with raising my age from the current 66 years 6 months to age 70) I did admire President Reagan’s action concerning Federal disability benefits: he ordered a wholesale review of all those receiving said benefits, resulting in a massive trimming of the roles (a number of those receiving disability benefits had returned to work without notifying the Government; others had simply improved to the point they no longer met the definition, others had died, etc). Small steps, but can result in some savings.

edit to add: I wish I could figure out how to operate the font!
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:09 PM
 
27,623 posts, read 19,653,584 times
Reputation: 11077
Quote:
Originally Posted by bongofury View Post
U.S. National Debt Clock : Real Time

An interesting read:
Adam Smith's Prophecy: Today's Sovereign Debt Crisis

Anyone think about: How much is too much before indebtedness overwhelms our national stability? How much more dependent shall we become borrowing from nation states with whom we have basic philosophical and moral disagreements? Will today's youth become more shackled by indebtedness than their parents?

- I would rather be governed by the first three hundred names in the Boston telephone book than by the Faculty of Harvard University. William F. Buckley
Two unnecessary wars and ridiculous trade agreements will do it every time.
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Old 08-20-2010, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,874 posts, read 23,008,956 times
Reputation: 8659
Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Cut ALL Congressional salaries AND pensions 50% immediately. Do it AGAIN next year.
Yep, then no one who knows anything will run. But hey, others can't do much worse, so ok.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Cut ALL government salaries 50% immediately. Gov employees make twice the private sector.
So you want to cut the salaries of USDA workers, Airport attendees, FBI, CIA, NSA, military personnel, and countless other experts that keep us safe and are needed for the society we have today? Really, that'd kind of be stupid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Cut ALL elected officials and government employees health care plans completely. They should get the same plan as the people get.
My employer supplies my healthcare, why shouldn't their employer do the same?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Military exempt from Colonels on down.
Yeah, lets leave out the thousands of other government workers we need to maintain a healthy functioning society.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
ALL Bills are to be published, read, examined and debated 6 months before voting on them.
They are, other than the 6 month limit. So if someone attacks us, or one of our allies we should debate the war for 6 months? So if there is a Hurricane that destroys Miami, we should wait for that? Silly idea again. But as I said, all bills are published, you're free to read them. I even have an app on my phone that tells me of all new congressional bills, actions, statements, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
All Bills 'rushed' or pushed thru by any other means should be rescinded.
Again, war, natural disasters, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
NO agency can enact laws or restrictions upon the states, the public or any citizen without a Congressional vote.
Ok, I'll go along with this on most things, but again, natural disasters, mobilizing national guard troops, lots of other things I can think of that need immediate decisions and action, and Congress isn't always right there to get it in front of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
NO pork spending in any bill allowed.
Line item veto, read it, learn it, love it. Republican congress didn't want to allow that to Clinton, blame them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Send lobbyists packing.
So what about the good lobbyists? Do I really need to get you a list of everything thats lobbied before congressional leaders and the President?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Enact tougher sunset laws and enforce them.
Like the stupid tax cut that Republicans are fighting like hell to keep for the richest 5% of Americans?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
Every entity funded by the taxpayer that gets money next year spends like mad so they get the same or more the next year. This needs to end.
I agree, on some counts, but again, exceptions to every rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
End all bank, union, and corporate bail outs.
No, GM is doing quite well, so is Lehman bros. Of course, do I think they should have been broken down into smaller "failable" parts, yep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
End funding other countries problems.
What problems would those be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
End funding of religious special interests.
Tax them, please.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wrench409 View Post
End imminent domain by ALL government action, Federal. state and local.
Nope, bad idea.
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