American Individualism vs. Social Europe (ethic, nationalist, death, borders)

[diablogun]

Originally Posted by syracusa

Debatable, all right.
I respectfully disagree with the assertion that Americans are fat because of the individual "choices" they make, such as "no exercise".
Do you think Europeans CHOOSE to exercise? The French are the ones who invented the anti-cellulite creams as a way to lose weight without moving a darn finger, if at all possible.

Europeans are born into natural "exercising", whether they like it or not. That's aka living. Also called "walking to go grab something". Their organically grown settlements are conducive to walking to the market, to the store, to the corner cafe, to window shopping, etc. A nice, relaxing afternoon can amount to nothing but window shopping on the Main street (no buying involved).

I cannot walk to anything where I live - to save my life. Just like most middle class America. I also don't have time in my extremely busy schedule, as a part-time working-from-home mother of 2 small children (obviously in my care), to do the dutiful, health conscious, walk for-walking's sake that I see some joggers with a lot of time on their hands do. I also don't like to walk to nowhere, through dead suburban neighborhoods.

And no, it is not "a choice" I make. I am simply forced to live this way - given the infrastructure of this country.

Of course, you can argue that ultimately, everything is a choice.
Americans could theoretically revolt and overthrow a system that places them in "little or not so little boxes"...(see below again) in the middle of nowhere and feeds them nasty food; but they won't, because they think big business has a God-Given right to make lots of money off of their backs ... just like they themselves will do off of others' backs, when they too will strike it big.

So maybe you're right. It is a choice. Just not the kind you were talking about.


YouTube - Little Boxes

Interesting. I think by your admission everything is indeed a choice. If your suburban life sucks, move to another, or better yet, move to Europe--that is what I plan to do. Freedom here, like Europe, presents options.

As to those evil "big businesses", I wonder how many big businesses provide any number of products at affordable prices in an efficient manner? I wonder how many evil employees of those evil businesses are happy to have the work it provides them? Respectfully, I appreciate it when a business provides me a product at a price I can afford.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by diablogun

If your suburban life sucks, move to another, or better yet, move to Europe--that is what I plan to do.

Really. Perhaps you will donate the millions I need in order to afford living in an attractive, walkable, inviting, as well as safe part of a big American city - similar to what Europeans enjoy when they go "exercising".
I didn't think so. Until then, it's not a choice.

Originally Posted by diablogun

As to those evil "big businesses", I wonder how many big businesses provide any number of products at affordable prices in an efficient manner?

I thought we just talked about the price we pay for that apparent "affordability". Developers provide "affordable" housing in an "efficient manner" so that they can make huge profits fast, not to improve people's quality of life.

There are two types of profits:
the ethical kind and the "evil" - as you called it - kind.
Ideally, in order to claim the kind of admiration and legitimacy you seem so eager to reserve for American-type Big Business, a business should create a useful, high quality, well-made product to be proud of - then keep a profit to make a living. It is how capitalism started before it was taken over by thugs. The goal of expanding forever in search of ever higher profits, all while the quality of your product goes down, is not something that will gain my respect any time soon.

Originally Posted by diablogun

I wonder how many evil employees of those evil businesses are happy to have the work it provides them? Respectfully, I appreciate it when a business provides me a product at a price I can afford.

Respectfully, I have no idea how the employees should be "evil" too if they work for the evil big businesses. Unless you count the preservation instinct as a choice too.

Also respectfully, you are apparently not aware of the ramifications of how those businesses manage to provide "affordable" products to you, and what happens when people feel they can buy and throw away all they want, as long as the product is "affordable" and they can buy some more.

Do you really think that "made in Malaysia" electronic whatever you grab off the shelf, feeling so comfortable with its "affordability", costs what it says on it is costs?

[Visvaldis]

Why do phrases such as "American individualism" keep popping up?
Anyone who has ever been to other countries can see that Americans are very conformist. The American Dream is that everyone should think alike. Americans say they celebrate differences, but where?
Americans believe in individual ownership, not in individual thought.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by Visvaldis

Why do phrases such as "American individualism" keep popping up?
Anyone who has ever been to other countries can see that Americans are very conformist. The American Dream is that everyone should think alike. Americans say they celebrate differences, but where?
Americans believe in individual ownership, not in individual thought.

Nailed.

[rugnot]

I'm an American who has traveled widely in Europe over many years. The typical Yank stays very close to home unless a job in another state beacons. Additionally, ask most Yanks, in the USA, if they have a passport. Most will not.
This lack of perspective results in a narrow world view and an inability to understand those who are not like them. Now, the aforementioned can be said of many people in many countries. And, all tend to be the same, for lack of perspective results in lack of understanding, lower curiosity and disinterest in learning.
But, Americans like to see themselves as being strong and tough, hence, the Rugged Individualism, I can do it my way. Problem is that many aren't and can't and most look to gov't when the going gets too rough. It's classic seeing the world in stereotype- I do can do it my way so leave me alone, but when I can't come to my rescue.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by diablogun

Again, this is another incorrect statement about America. Americans are probably the most charitable people in the world. From Syracuse Professor Arthur Brooks, in his book Who Really cares: America's Charity Divide:

The fact is that Americans give more than the citizens of any other country. … They also volunteer more,” Brooks said. “Americans per capita individually give about three and a half times more money per year, than the French per capita. … Seven times more than the Germans and 14 times more than the Italians.”

Why not talk about percentages instead of absolute numbers?

Someone with 10 dollars giving away 3 to charity is way more charitable than someone with 30 dollars giving away 5. (numbers just for illustration purposes, nothing exact).

Also, why should the American idea of organized and impersonal volunteering should matter more, charity wise, than the European practice of close knit families and social circles in which people help each other in direct, highly personal and affectionate ways?
A lot of the dry objectives Americans achieve through volunteering (which then they call charity) are often achieved in Europe by the government.
The rest is personal, direct help - which Americans are terrible at.

I have seen more than my share of members of the same family who would not even think about offering each other help, under the pretext that everyone is responsible strictly for themselves, spouse and minor children.

As some say: "charity begins at home".
If everyone enjoyed closely-knit families and neighborhoods, perhaps there wouldn't be as much need for formal volunteering in the first place.

[Mclaurin]

The problem we have is our polarization. What, break into smaller societies? That won't fix the problem. The problem is everyone wants someone to blame, ..... the world is complex. Get real.

Whaaa Whaaa somebody is going to get more of a break than I will.
Whaaa Whaaa!!! Someone is taking my money to feed low income school children. Whaaa....

They want my money to pay for health care for illegals....Bull. The cost of treating uninsured people (including working American born folks), in emergency rooms is one large friggen reason your health care is so high.

Europe has a problem with low birth rates. Yes, but the world is in the mess it is in because of the high birth rates. Their are too many people in the world. So I don't see that as a problem in the long run. People from other countries are moving to these places to offset.

If you don't pay for services they won't be there. Roads, monitoring safety levels of water. Education so people can know how to do things like read what their government is doing and perhaps take part?

Hello? Is anyone paying attention? Does anyone take responsibility for anything out of their own little "box"?

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by Mclaurin

The problem we have is our polarization. What, break into smaller societies? That won't fix the problem. The problem is everyone wants someone to blame, ..... the world is complex. Get real.

Whaaa Whaaa somebody is going to get more of a break than I will.
Whaaa Whaaa!!! Someone is taking my money to feed low income school children. Whaaa....

They want my money to pay for health care for illegals....Bull. The cost of treating uninsured people in emergency rooms is the the friggen reason your health care is so high.

Europe has a problem with low birth rates. Yes, but the world is in the mess it is in because of the high birth rates. Their are too many people in the world. So I don't see that as a problem in the long run. People from other countries are moving to these places to offset.

If you don't pay for servces they won't be there. Roads, monitoring safety levels of water. Education so people can know how to do things like read what their government is doing and perhaps take part?

Hello? Is anyone paying attention? Does anyone take responsibility for anything out of their own little "box"?

Agree 100% with the post, including the no-nonsense tone.
Too bad there are too few individuals who have this kind of sharp zoom lens in their heads.

[DreamingSpires]

Originally Posted by Visvaldis

Why do phrases such as "American individualism" keep popping up?
Anyone who has ever been to other countries can see that Americans are very conformist. The American Dream is that everyone should think alike. Americans say they celebrate differences, but where?
Americans believe in individual ownership, not in individual thought.

Nice to see this thread has started off with a bang. Let's hope it can maintain a good level of momentum and interest.

I think the problem here is one of definition. Diablogun and I started this dialogue on a different thread, by discussing the European social model (where services such as health care and education are heavily subsidized by the state instead of provided directly by the market, as they are in the US--this is the norm in European societies).

I pointed out that Europeans generally don't mind paying high taxes, thereby ceding direct control of their hard-earned money to a government that funds and administers public services in order to support a "social fabric." He and I both agreed, however, that such a "social model" would be extremely difficult to implement in the US. Why? Here is what Diablogun said:

It is hard to argue that one doesn't lose freedom....when one hands ever larger portions of one's wealth to the state. This is especially the case when those funds are used inefficiently and in contradiction to the values that many hold dear within the society. One problem with Americans' "diversity" is that it makes for large portions of the society that have no desire or inclination to live like other portions of it. ....imposing anything on a culture that is not receptive to it will not serve to increase any sort of solidarity within a society.

He added:

I have not seen this be a very big problem in Sweden, as the society is pretty homogeneous in a political sense

In response, I said:

I have often told Americans that social democracy could NEVER work in America unless there was massive cultural change first. The size and diversity, as well as that good old intangible "American Individualism," all mitigate against it.....

Here is the entire dialogue ....
//www.city-data.com/forum/world...-sweden-4.html

Now, this brings me back to Vivaldis's comment:

Americans are very conformist. The American Dream is that everyone should think alike. Americans say they celebrate differences, but where?
Americans believe in individual ownership, not in individual thought.

I would tend to agree with this, Visvaldis. Which means we have on our hands a bit of a paradox. How is it possible for Americans to be both "very conformist" yet very individualistic at the same time?

Any thoughts, folks?

I will throw out a couple quotes from Tocqueville:

I know no country in which, generally speaking, there is less independence of mind and true freedom of discussion than in America

In America the majority has enclosed thought within a formidable fence. A writer is free inside that area, but woe to the man who goes beyond it. Not that he stands in fear of an auto-da-fé, but he must face all kinds of unpleasantness and everyday persecution....

[Mclaurin]

Why don't you talk Tocqueville to children who have no health care.