Having your cake and eating it too (Brown, companies, elections)

[GalileoSmith]

Originally Posted by JazzyTallGuy

I say knock yourself out. If you want a WET network go for it. But keep in mind you'd be competing with Fox News, Country Music Television, and host of other networks that would be fighting for similar audiences.

Well, as I've said many times, we are not talking America as it is today, but how it will evolve in the future. Which direction will it go. A WET could almost be a symbol of the white-oriented organizations that would be in the country's future if we chose to become a multicultural society.

I can recall from when I was a kid newspaper want-ads saying such things as, Wanted; White male for salesman position. Or, Wanted; Black woman for maid duties. Unheard of today. So I have seen American society can change quickly over a relatively few years. I'm not saying any of these possible future changes are necessarily right or wrong. They can become the accepted norm. But if you think some of these visions are far-fetched, well, you might want to think again. And if it makes any difference, white folks will be a minority in a few decades.

[nat_at772]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

Galio is being very superficial. He is more concerned about what something is “Called” or labeled, than what it is in actuality. A historically black college, with 10% white enrollment, is no more an exclusively black college than any university with 90% white enrollment is a "white college". Hence, one might ask….”If you can have black colleges why can’t we have white colleges”? However, in truth, the “Black” college is no more an exclusively black college than the nearly all white college is exclusively white. So in essence, whites already have the functional equivalent of “White colleges” just as much as blacks have the functional equivalent of “black colleges”, the only difference being one of semantics or labeling.

The situation is no different from a WET or BET. If you ignore the labels and just look at the functions, BET is not exclusively black and FOX is not exclusively white. One has a majority white demographic and target market and one has a majority white demographic and target market. Hence, there already exist functional equivalents of BET for whites……with the ONLY difference being the semantics and marketing. The functionally white networks are not marketed using the label or qualifier “White” while the functionally black network, BET, is marketed mentioning the target demographic. The target demographic for Fox is white, directly or indirectly. They just do not mention it in the marketing and package.

Galio and other are being totally disingenuous if you give them credit for intelligence. They are obfuscating the issue by focusing on semantics rather the functional substance of what is being delivered. White already have a WET in function and substance as much as blacks have a BET in function and substance, because none of them are exclusively black and BET is even owned by whites. I would say if anything…….if black people just drop the label “Black” and Market things to the black demographic…….would whites still complain.

That's the conclusion I just came to. It's the word "black" that's bothering them. No one seemed to mind when UPN/WB/CW was catering to the black demographic. And TVOne seems to go pretty much unnoticed; although it's programming is way more black-focused than BET's these days.

There is an audience for black television and the mainstream networks are not catering to it. So does that mean it should just be ignored because it bothers some white people for a black people to have programming aimed at them?

This isn't a racial issue. It's a marketing issue; not only for the shows themselves but the companies buying ad time. If your choices are Sex and the city vs Girlfriends and your product is Dark & Lovely, which show are you going to choose? If you have a salon that specializes in natural hair care and you want to advertise (locally of course) and your choices are Waiting to Exhale Vs. First Wives Club, which time slot are you going to chose?

I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp, so it makes me believe that people fully understand they just want to choose to make it a racist issue.

Originally Posted by GalileoSmith

Well, as I've said many times, we are not talking America as it is today, but how it will evolve in the future.
.

So you want to talk about the present without acknowledging the past and you want to talk about the future without acknowledging the present? OK well that makes sense

[Indentured Servant]

How did Glenn Beck attract a crowd to Washington of tens of thousand, in multi-racial and ethnic America, yet the crowd was probably 98% white? This was not marketed as a "White people march on Washington"....so how did they get a crowd that did not reflect the demographics of the nation? What this demonstrates is that one does not need to use the word "White" to create something that becomes essentially white.

I think focusing on labels is a red herring. You can appeal to whites and target whites without using the label "white" and you can appeal to blacks and target blacks without using the label black. Black people are simply upfront about who they are marketing and appealing to because there is no stigma associated with it. There is, however, a stigma associated with things called "white". It was used, for centuries, to create a seperate and unequal society based upon race. So when something gets labeled "White"....it is suspect based upon that history (again...can't have your cake and eat it to....actions create reactions).

That having been said.......racism has adjusted like an insurgency. The method of operation now is to not be obvious by using labels or terms that traditionally indicated racist inent. Hence, this is why you can tens of thousands of people to a march on Washington.....with 98% being white. In other words....you can attract white people without saying "Hey white people". Now....you cannot attract an EXCLUSiVELY white gathering....but you can get pretty darn close with a certain marketing strategy.

If I wanted to attract a white crowd this is how I could do it. I would market to people who are conservative, country music fans, NASCAR Fans, who believe that the current adminstration is ruining the nation.....and I bet I will get a response that is at least 95% white....even though the nation is 70% white.

[nat_at772]

Originally Posted by Indentured Servant

If I wanted to attract a white crowd this is how I could do it. I would market to people who are conservative, country music fans, NASCAR Fans, who believe that the current adminstration is ruining the nation.....and I bet I will get a response that is at least 95% white.

That's how marketing is done. Everything we do, every product we buy, everything we watch, every place we shop is divided up into little sections so that the company knows how to better market their products.

TNT has recently found out that Hawthrone has given them a substantial black audience; one would assume that this would be a selling point when trying to sell ad space to a company with a black-used product.

HSN has a break-down of what time of day they have the largest percentage of black viewers; one would assume they would use this time to sell a product by Kimora instead of Jessica Simpson.

Also you have to keep in mind that almost all shows that target a black audience are specifically targeting the black female audience, so while networks may not be targeting a specific race - if their programming is aimed at the male demographic chances are the majority of audience will be white.

[northstar22]

One other thing that bothers me about BET and other "black" networks, is that they are so stereotypical. They focus so much on marketing to the stereotypical black person.

For instance, why doesn't BET play Sevendust, Killswitch Engage or For Today music videos (hard rock/metal bands with black members?) If their goal is to truly be a "community" network, then why do they only play ghetto rap and R & B (even ghetto music by white people) instead of all music produced by blacks? Why focus on shows such as "Thug Life," interviews with criminals and thug rappers, standup comics who say the "n" word 50 times a minute and "sitcoms" that glorify the ghetto lifestyle? Does that crap really appeal to blacks? It makes blacks look incredibly stupid!

Imagine if "WET" had reality shows about all the negative white stereotypes: Klan meeting broadcasts, specials on crystal meth, interviews with pedophiles and skinheads, NASCAR races, redneck sitcoms, shows about how to remodel your trailer? Would white people support such a network? No? So, why do black people insist on supporting "targeted media" that makes them look like trash?

[Indentured Servant]

Originally Posted by natalayjones

That's how marketing is done. Everything we do, every product we buy, everything we watch, every place we shop is divided up into little sections so that the company knows how to better market their products.

TNT has recently found out that Hawthrone has given them a substantial black audience; one would assume that this would be a selling point when trying to sell ad space to a company with a black-used product.

HSN has a break-down of what time of day they have the largest percentage of black viewers; one would assume they would use this time to sell a product by Kimora instead of Jessica Simpson.

Also you have to keep in mind that almost all shows that target a black audience are specifically targeting the black female audience, so while networks may not be targeting a specific race - if their programming is aimed at the male demographic chances are the majority of audience will be white.

I am no expert on marketing but it sounds to me that you know what you are talking about. What you say ads (pun intended) up to me.

There is an old saying....."where there is a will....there is a way". America has made tremendous strides in race and the treatment of black people in this country. How far we STILL have yet to go is only testimony for how bad black used to have it. However, when laws changed it was not put before the American people as ballot box issues to vote on......it was acts of congress or executive orders that FORCE changed laws. Hence, there were millions of people who still felt the same way....but they had to adjust to a nation that had now made illegal things that they used to do legally. Did racist people just go away and give up? Again....where there is a will there is a way. Laws just made things harder to do....but it did not change hearts or stop people from trying to preserve white privelege and supremacy no more than laws against crime has stopped people from doing crimes.

[nat_at772]

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

One other thing that bothers me about BET and other "black" networks, is that they are so stereotypical. They focus so much on marketing to the stereotypical black person.

I'll agree that BET does that...which other networks are you referring to?

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

For instance, why doesn't BET play Sevendust, Killswitch Engage or For Today music videos (hard rock/metal bands with black members?)

Are they popular in the black community? Personally I've never heard of them. Eminem is white but he raps and rap is popular in the black community so Eminem is on BET. New Kids on the Block aren't black but when they made a R&B song it was played on BET because black people like R&B. Same with J.Lo. Aaron Neville is black but he sings country music which doesn't have a large black audience so it's doubtful you'll see his videos on BET.

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

If their goal is to truly be a "community" network, then why do they only play ghetto rap and R & B (even ghetto music by white people) instead of all music produced by blacks? Why focus on shows such as "Thug Life," interviews with criminals and thug rappers, standup comics who say the "n" word 50 times a minute and "sitcoms" that glorify the ghetto lifestyle? Does that crap really appeal to blacks? It makes blacks look incredibly stupid!

I'll partially agree with your comment. BET's programming no longer has Black Star Power. Since Viacom has taken over it's become the place for walking, talking stereotypes with a few glimpses of the old BET every once in awhile. As for what I disagree with: I've never seen a comic use the n word on comic view and if they did it was edited out and that was the only original comedy show that BET has ever had. Everything else was done by other networks. Same with the sitcoms. They're not done by BET but other networks and later syndicated on BET - although off the top of my head I can't think of a single black sitcom that glorifies the ghetto lifestyle...care to give an example? Why BET has never chosen to write their own sitcoms is beyond me.

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

Imagine if "WET" had reality shows about all the negative white stereotypes: Klan meeting broadcasts, specials on crystal meth, interviews with pedophiles and skinheads, NASCAR races, redneck sitcoms, shows about how to remodel your trailer? Would white people support such a network? No? So, why do black people insist on supporting "targeted media" that makes them look like trash?

yeah that must be why that Jersey Shore show is so unpopular. No one would ever support a show that makes them look like trash.

A lot of black people don't support BET because of the very things you've listed. And the majority of BET's audience is young; I'd say their largest fan base is under 25. Either way, the answer is not to stop target audiences (cause that will never happen) but change the way BET operates. However, many of the things that BET shows are just MTV shows in black face. Viacom's strategy seems to be "white people like this, so we'll do it on BET and throw some black on it"

[northstar22]

Originally Posted by natalayjones

I'll agree that BET does that...which other networks are you referring to?

Are they popular in the black community? Personally I've never heard of them. Eminem is white but he raps and rap is popular in the black community so Eminem is on BET. New Kids on the Block aren't black but when they made a R&B song it was played on BET because black people like R&B. Same with J.Lo. Aaron Neville is black but he sings country music which doesn't have a large black audience so it's doubtful you'll see his videos on BET.

You're painting the black community with a very broad brush. There are black people who don't like rap and R&B, and who do like rock and country. Not all blacks act the same, think the same or have similar interests. I know I can't stand rap or R&B.

I'll partially agree with your comment. BET's programming no longer has Black Star Power. Since Viacom has taken over it's become the place for walking, talking stereotypes with a few glimpses of the old BET every once in awhile. As for what I disagree with: I've never seen a comic use the n word on comic view and if they did it was edited out and that was the only original comedy show that BET has ever had. Everything else was done by other networks. Same with the sitcoms. They're not done by BET but other networks and later syndicated on BET - although off the top of my head I can't think of a single black sitcom that glorifies the ghetto lifestyle...care to give an example? Why BET has never chosen to write their own sitcoms is beyond me.

When was it ever "non-stereotypical?" Admittedly, I've never "watched" BET (or the CW or other black-oriented networks), but as far back as I can remember, it's always been very stereotypical. As far as specific shows that are ghetto? I can't think of any recent titles, but I do remember seeing some shows that just made me shake my head. I don't watch BET, but I've come across some things that just made me shake my head.

yeah that must be why that Jersey Shore show is so unpopular. No one would ever support a show that makes them look like trash.

Good point.

A lot of black people don't support BET because of the very things you've listed. And the majority of BET's audience is young; I'd say their largest fan base is under 25. Either way, the answer is not to stop target audiences (cause that will never happen) but change the way BET operates. However, many of the things that BET shows are just MTV shows in black face. Viacom's strategy seems to be "white people like this, so we'll do it on BET and throw some black on it"

What do "black people like?" How does that differ from what white people like? Isn't this a form of self-segregation? I guess it goes back to the whole "multicultural vs. melting-pot" thing. I strongly support the melting pot paradigm -- one American culture.

[nat_at772]

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

You're painting the black community with a very broad brush. There are black people who don't like rap and R&B, and who do like rock and country. Not all blacks act the same, think the same or have similar interests. I know I can't stand rap or R&B.

I'm not painting anything. I'm talking about what's popular. Are you really going to argue that R&B and rap music aren't popular within the black community. I personally listen to Aerosmith but I won't pretend that Aerosmith is popular in the black community.

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

When was it ever "non-sterotypical?" Admittedly, I've never "watched" BET (or the CW or other black-oriented networks), but as far back as I can remember, it's always been very stereotypical. As far as specific shows that are ghetto? I can't think of any recent titles, but I do remember seeing some shows that just made me shake my head. I don't watch BET, but I've come across some things that just made me shake my head.

If you've never watched it then how can you criticize it? I hate that. It's like criticizing a book based on the back cover. I'm very critical of BET now because I remember BET then when the hosts were articulate,educated and professional (Donnie Simpson and Sheri Carter). I'm critical because I remember when they had shows line Teen Summit that actually discussed some of the things that BET is doing now. I'm critical because I remember when the Blackbuster movie was a family movie, usually a true-story, that wasn't going to get played on any channel. I've come across ghetto & trashy things on every network that makes me shake my head; thus the world and times we live in.

Originally Posted by flyingwriter

What do "black people like?" How does that differ from what white people like? Isn't this a form of self-segregation? I guess it goes back to the whole "multicultural vs. melting-pot" thing. I strongly support the melting pot paradigm -- one American culture.

So in order to be a melting pot, everyone has to like the same things? If that's the case then I hope I'm dead by the time this whole melting pot thing is completed. It's not so much as "what do black people like" vs "what do white people like" it's about "what group is more likely to watch this show."

This is why it's so hard to pitch a black drama because they have to figure out a way to keep it real enough to attract black viewers, yet also attract white viewers. Lincoln Heights had some moderate success but as the show went on they focused on the younger characters to draw in the tween market, which is one of the few age groups where race demographics skew.

Actually, that problem exists with black sitcoms outside of drama's, which is probably why there are so few now. If you remember in the 90's there was a huge block of sitcoms with black casts that were very successful but lately it seem Hollywood is out of ideas (which may explain the resurrection of 90210 and Melrose place ) A lot of people believe that a black sitcom can't succeed on mainstream channels because they can't figure out how to attract both audiences.

Both Fox & WB were able to overcome failing ratings by catering to the black audience with shows like Martin, In Living Color, Living Single, Sister to Sister but what happens is people start watching the shows, the network becomes more popular, they generate more money in advertising and then the use the money generated by the shows that saved them to finance other projects that will appeal to a broader audience so they can generate even more revenue and the black shows are dropped. IMO a lot of black shows ran past their prime, but I always wondered why they would replace a show that was very popular with one segment with a show that doesn't appeal to that segment at all.

[Indentured Servant]

You have to remember that dissent here is based upon absolutism. Note how Galio focused on the term "EXCLUSIVELY" and how people argued with me for what they say was infering that something was true of "ALL" white people. Now Flyingwriter is dissenting because a comment that something is not true for "ALL" black people because it was said that certain genres are popular with black people.

I think its disengenuous to dissent against general statements by pointing out exceptions. We all know and understand that exceptions exist and we have already ingegrated that fact into what we say. The arguments we make is not one of ABSOLUTISISM and we understand that......but many dissenters don't seem to understand that. However....maybe they don't want to understand because if you take away the assmption that we are speaking absolutism them there is nothing less to debate.