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Old 08-29-2010, 06:23 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,048,770 times
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Can I ask a technical question based upon privacy issues?

Certainly there is no law, or Court decision that requires law enforcement to keep visual surveillance on a individual. The "government" can tack your movements by car, plane, or on foot wherever you go on a public street, sidewalk or building. In short, this issue comes down to one thing, the manner in which the surveillance is conducted. On one hand the surveillance requires at least one or two "government" agents, on the other nothing more than a a computer, so at the end of the day, what is the qualitative difference regarding the "governments" knowledge about your comings and goings?
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,259,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Can I ask a technical question based upon privacy issues?

Certainly there is no law, or Court decision that requires law enforcement to keep visual surveillance on a individual. The "government" can tack your movements by car, plane, or on foot wherever you go on a public street, sidewalk or building. In short, this issue comes down to one thing, the manner in which the surveillance is conducted. On one hand the surveillance requires at least one or two "government" agents, on the other nothing more than a a computer, so at the end of the day, what is the qualitative difference regarding the "governments" knowledge about your comings and goings?
For me that would be ease of doing it. To follow you around requires manpower. You can't wholesale follow everyone and so you have to decide if its really important or if the time could be spent in better ways. There is a *cost* to it. This is simple. Sneek in and attach and leave and technology does the rest. You want to see what a whole street of people are doing, no problem. If its easy to do it will be done. If its not someone will have to think about it and reason out if there is really a reason to do it.

We take out the human factor, we can scrach off all the controls that help keep things in even keel.
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:42 PM
 
5,696 posts, read 6,208,233 times
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Originally Posted by ecvMatt View Post
The Government's New Right to Track Your Every Move With GPS - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/08599201315000 - broken link)

Scary.




good grief!
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:51 PM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,841,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Can I ask a technical question based upon privacy issues?

Certainly there is no law, or Court decision that requires law enforcement to keep visual surveillance on a individual. The "government" can tack your movements by car, plane, or on foot wherever you go on a public street, sidewalk or building. In short, this issue comes down to one thing, the manner in which the surveillance is conducted. On one hand the surveillance requires at least one or two "government" agents, on the other nothing more than a a computer, so at the end of the day, what is the qualitative difference regarding the "governments" knowledge about your comings and goings?
in actuality there is none, as long as the tracking device is installed where there is no expectation of privacy. if a government agent breaks into your locked garage, and breaks into your locked vehicle to install a tracking device, then they would need a warrant as you have a real expectation of privacy. but if your locker vehicle is parked in front of your house, in an open driveway that is accessible to anyone who walks by, and the tracking device is placed where one does not have to get into the locked vehicle to install it, there is no expectation of privacy.

the only difference is cost and manpower. if they can install a $100 device on your car to track you, it will be much cheaper than tracking you by using a few $20k unmarked cars, and drivers that make $30k per year, or tracking you with a $180k airplane and a pilot that makes $50k per year, or sending huge amounts of money for satellite time.
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:18 PM
 
19,226 posts, read 15,321,408 times
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Originally Posted by rbohm View Post

3: dont do anything criminal.

personally i choose option three.
Does that make a difference?
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:14 PM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,841,834 times
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Originally Posted by ergohead View Post
Does that make a difference?
one of the nice things about having no criminal record, and a clean driving record, if you treat the LEO who stops you for most traffic violations, it is very possible that you will only get a warning instead of a ticket. over the years i have deserved several tickets, and yet because of a clean driving record, and no criminal record, and treating the LEO with respect, i got warnings rather than tickets. for instance, a few years ago i was driving through ohio in a car that i had bought in virginia. i got caught for speeding, 10 over the limit. i was concerned that the LEO would question the fact that i had a car that was registered in virginia, and that i had an arizona drivers license. he didnt say a word about that, told me to watch my speed, and let me go with a written warning.
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:22 PM
 
Location: Texas
774 posts, read 1,164,606 times
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Originally posted by rbohm:

when your front yard or driveway is open to the public at large, you have no expectation of privacy. if the vehicle is in an enclosed garage, or behind a fence, that is a different matter entirely as at that point you do have a reasonable expectation of privacy. you have a few options as i see it;

1: park the vehicle in an enclosed garage, that way the cops need a warrant

2: park behind a closed fence, again that way the cops need a warrant

3: dont do anything criminal.

personally i choose option three.


Do you honestly believe that not participating in criminal activity would stop the police from placing said device on your vehicle? I see that as a very naiive position, but then I also suppose that you have valid reasons for feeling that way. My guess is that it's based on your experience with law enforcement.

That's the very same basis I have for my position, that refraining from criminal activity does not deter law enforcement from performing electronic and other types of surveillance on a law-abiding private citizen. I know this first hand. I also know that they will kick your door down without warning in spite of the absolute absence of a search warrant and any evidence of any kind that there is any questionable, let alone illegal, activity going on within the residence.

Not to direct this at you personally, but anyone who thinks that they are safe from police abuse of power (local, county, state, federal, it does not matter) simply because they are not breaking the law, is a fool.
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:38 PM
 
19,226 posts, read 15,321,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SloRoller View Post
Originally posted by rbohm:

when your front yard or driveway is open to the public at large, you have no expectation of privacy. if the vehicle is in an enclosed garage, or behind a fence, that is a different matter entirely as at that point you do have a reasonable expectation of privacy. you have a few options as i see it;

1: park the vehicle in an enclosed garage, that way the cops need a warrant

2: park behind a closed fence, again that way the cops need a warrant

3: dont do anything criminal.

personally i choose option three.


Do you honestly believe that not participating in criminal activity would stop the police from placing said device on your vehicle? I see that as a very naiive position, but then I also suppose that you have valid reasons for feeling that way. My guess is that it's based on your experience with law enforcement.

That's the very same basis I have for my position, that refraining from criminal activity does not deter law enforcement from performing electronic and other types of surveillance on a law-abiding private citizen. I know this first hand. I also know that they will kick your door down without warning in spite of the absolute absence of a search warrant and any evidence of any kind that there is any questionable, let alone illegal, activity going on within the residence.

Not to direct this at you personally, but anyone who thinks that they are safe from police abuse of power (local, county, state, federal, it does not matter) simply because they are not breaking the law, is a fool.
Yep!
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:27 PM
 
31,387 posts, read 37,048,770 times
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Originally Posted by nightbird47 View Post

We take out the human factor, we can scrach off all the controls that help keep things in even keel.
I'm just not following your logic.
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Old 08-31-2010, 03:43 AM
 
Location: Cushing OK
14,539 posts, read 21,259,715 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
I'm just not following your logic.
It's actually pretty simple. If its going to cost man hours which could be spent doing something else, then to follow someone around becomes a choice of which is most beneficial. So to follow someone without some actual reason, stated or not, is far less likely.

To stick a gps tracker on a car takes absolutely minimal time. If there is someone who wants to just watch in case something happens its been made very easy. If it was required to put man hours into the tail, then there would be a whole lot more actual thought employed.

If power is given, it WILL be used. Just because it can.

So that human factor is those man hours and especially the choice of what constitutes the best use of the time. Make it too easy and the balance goes toward the ease of sticking on a tracker over making a choice.
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