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Your friend's argument is absurd. The African American middle class originally abandoned the inner city for many of the same reasons that white middle class folks abandoned the inner city, single family homes with a white picket fence and a backyard. In more recent years, they abandoned the inner-city for better schools, better area stores, and a life away from the substandard housing, crime, and lack of public amenities that white flight from the cities wrought.
I know a whole lot of middle class black folks who rightfully bemoan black folks who have this "ghetto" mentality, but I don't know of a single one who ipso facto ascribe such attributes to poor, uneducated working class black folks because too many of them are the children of poor, uneducated black who worked their asses off making a better life for their children.
When if comes to conservative black folk, it has less to do with being uppity, uncle toms, or sellouts, rather just being hopelessly delusional and amnesic.
Funny, that argument is one that my overwhelming liberal friends make constantly.
Once again, you seem to think that this is the sole providence of this argument is somehow interwoven into the soul of black conservatives. It isn't.
Negro puleeeeze! What the media does can't even be rationally reconciled with the stereotypes perpetuated by the Republican Party. Just give it a rest. Please!
Exhibit A:
[this political party is enabling so many black Americans to stay in poverty, fueling their poverty by not holding these same people TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS,
WTH, if the incarceration rate is any indication, the government is working overtime and on Sundays making black folks responsible for their actions.
Yes, we's need massa to teach us dem good work ethics? Ah, perhaps you might outline what government program you good conservative black folks would propose to teach them shiftless nappy headed folks good work ethics, cause I'm dying to know what they might be.
[/quote]On top of that this same democratic party (ie the black caucus) blames the other political party for the poverty of black people.[/quote]
We can debate the numbers but there are couple of threads here on C-D which are more than persuasive about who wins and who loses when it comes to income under Democratic and Republican administrations, and from what I'm reading, it ain't the Republicans that working folks in general are prospering under.
Yeah, the Democratic party has a virtual monopoly on corrupt public officials, anyway, as you should full well know that the issue of bad inner city schools is a tad bit more complicated that corrupt officials, but discussing those complex issues in an open, honest and forthright manner is either beyond the intellectual capabilities of some conservatives or just doesn't fit the agenda of those who actually could.
Negro puleeze!
Preaching to the choir is the safest form of discussion for conservatives these days.
Ah, the nouveau Uncle Tom card, played to shield one from any criticism. Sort of like a new version of Spades.
And as a black man, who grew up in south central, graduated of Crenshaw, high school, and as a straight up no affirmative action Cornell University alum who went to school on the GI bill, summer work on oil rigs and construction jobs, I would agree that there is no substitute for hard work. This isn't a conservative vs liberal, Democrat vs Republican issue unless you choose to make it one.[/quote]
Points well taken, but I beg to differ when it comes the the MIS EDUCATION OF OUR INNER CITY YOUTH. Part of the problem is the fact that, we as black people, won't take full responsibility for the large number of black kids not finishing high school in the numbers that our grand parents prayed to see. There is no excuse for anyone, black, white, brown, or yellow to not at least finish high school. But again, maybe I am asking for too much.
I wasn't trying to shield myself from criticism, but some of your points made were exactly why I said that I would be criticized. You are right this isn't a conservative vs liberal, Democrat vs Republican issue unless you or we choose to make it one. But holding on to those ideologies or policies for the sake of being loyal to one's beliefs, seems not to get black people anywhere. But again keeping black Americans caught in a catch-22 situation until they realize that success starts with the individual, not with what some Democrat, Republican, Conservative or Liberal can do for you.
I think all this thread proves is that regardless of race, people want to live where they feel it is more safe. They want their children to be able to attend the best schools possible. In all but a few rare clases, these areas are not located in the poverty and crime ridden inner cities. Thus "white flight" is really "middle class" flight of all people who take it upon themselves to improve both their conditions and their lives.
I guess the OP's post may surprise some liberals but I don't think it is surprising to those of us that understand liberal policies of dumping money into poverty stricken areas not only has has not helped but has been a historical failure since the 1960's.
I don't get it. Why should some black person be responsible for every other black person just because they are both black? That's stupid. I'm not responsible for all the asian people in this country who aren't doing well (whoever and wherever those people are). I am responsible for me, my community, and my family/friends.
If you are black and you want to move, then move! What kind of ridiculous thing is this to say that blacks should help other blacks? We should all help each other, but it should not have some race issue attached to it.
I agree, and that was what made this woman's point so absurd. But I didn't want to get into this huge debate with her. I felt that she was being sincere but not looking at the reality that some black Americans don't want to leave the inner city either, they like being in an area where they don't have to worry about a high standard of living, because if some of them do, that means that they can't do the crimes that they keep doing. I dont want anyone to misunderstand me as to think that just because a black person doesn't want to leave the inner city is a criminal, but the criminals that do live in the inner city and happen to be black, are the ones that I am addressing. Not every black person wants to come home to grafitti on their properties, watching unemployed black young adult men sending them off to work and greeting you when you get back home.
Your friend's argument is absurd. The African American middle class originally abandoned the inner city for many of the same reasons that white middle class folks abandoned the inner city, single family homes with a white picket fence and a backyard. In more recent years, they abandoned the inner-city for better schools, better area stores, and a life away from the substandard housing, crime, and lack of public amenities that white flight from the cities wrought.
I know a whole lot of middle class black folks who rightfully bemoan black folks who have this "ghetto" mentality, but I don't know of a single one who ipso facto ascribe such attributes to poor, uneducated working class black folks because too many of them are the children of poor, uneducated black who worked their asses off making a better life for their children.
When if comes to conservative black folk, it has less to do with being uppity, uncle toms, or sellouts, rather just being hopelessly delusional and amnesic.
Funny, that argument is one that my overwhelming liberal friends make constantly.
Once again, you seem to think that this is the sole providence of this argument is somehow interwoven into the soul of black conservatives. It isn't.
Negro puleeeeze! What the media does can't even be rationally reconciled with the stereotypes perpetuated by the Republican Party. Just give it a rest. Please!
Exhibit A:
[this political party is enabling so many black Americans to stay in poverty, fueling their poverty by not holding these same people TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS,
WTH, if the incarceration rate is any indication, the government is working overtime and on Sundays making black folks responsible for their actions.
Yes, we's need massa to teach us dem good work ethics? Ah, perhaps you might outline what government program you good conservative black folks would propose to teach them shiftless nappy headed folks good work ethics, cause I'm dying to know what they might be.
[/quote]On top of that this same democratic party (ie the black caucus) blames the other political party for the poverty of black people.[/quote]
We can debate the numbers but there are couple of threads here on C-D which are more than persuasive about who wins and who loses when it comes to income under Democratic and Republican administrations, and from what I'm reading, it ain't the Republicans that working folks in general are prospering under.
Yeah, the Democratic party has a virtual monopoly on corrupt public officials, anyway, as you should full well know that the issue of bad inner city schools is a tad bit more complicated that corrupt officials, but discussing those complex issues in an open, honest and forthright manner is either beyond the intellectual capabilities of some conservatives or just doesn't fit the agenda of those who actually could.
Negro puleeze!
Preaching to the choir is the safest form of discussion for conservatives these days.
Ah, the nouveau Uncle Tom card, played to shield one from any criticism. Sort of like a new version of Spades.
And as a black man, who grew up in south central, graduated of Crenshaw, high school, and as a straight up no affirmative action Cornell University alum who went to school on the GI bill, summer work on oil rigs and construction jobs, I would agree that there is no substitute for hard work. This isn't a conservative vs liberal, Democrat vs Republican issue unless you choose to make it one.[/quote] Have you given back to your community lately? signed, The Massa.
Part of the problem is the fact that, we as black people, won't take full responsibility for the large number of black kids not finishing high school in the numbers that our grand parents prayed to see.
It is one thing to charge that "black people" won't take "full" responsibility for the black drop outs, but quite another to come up with how black folks are suppose to take up such a responsibility. If you have a solution other than partisan bs, then I'm all ears.
Quote:
I wasn't trying to shield myself from criticism, but some of your points made were exactly why I said that I would be criticized.
Such as?
Quote:
But again keeping black Americans caught in a catch-22 situation until they realize that success starts with the individual, not with what some Democrat, Republican, Conservative or Liberal can do for you.
I don't see the Hellereque dilemma, someone needs to insure that hurdles of racial bias are eliminated and not allowed to arise. Someone has to provide a base for underprivileged individuals (regardless of skin color) to receive a quality education. Someone must ensure that the economy is maintained at a level where all can gain a foothold. As they say, you can't pull yourself with your own boot straps if you don't have a boot to begin with. In my opinion that someone is society, and in this country the instrument of the overall society is government and while it isn't the role or expectation that government can or should solve all public ills, it must provide and maintain the basis of a functioning society.
You say that success starts with the individual, but I don't know of a single solitary black person whose success was accomplished without government involvement. Even during the darkest days of Jim Crow, those dilapidated and underfunded schools had to exist before the desire for an education could even be entertained.
But people with college degrees and work experience are out of jobs. Are you going to have the same snide and insensitive attitude with them too? Are you going to have the same snide attitude when corporations like GM are given not just "hand outs" but hundreds of thousands of dollars after they made terrible decisions?
Quote:
Originally Posted by thriftylefty
I think its wrong to teach people in impoverished situations that its somebodies duty to help them. I was raised to think that if I screwed up and didn't get an education or marketable skills then it was no ones job not even the government to help me out. My parents actually pointed out down and outers and people with no prospects to us and told us you can chose that or the other. My only duty to my fellow man is to serve as an example . I want parents to be able to point to me and say to their kids "I want you to be like him, do what he did"
Speaking of the women's movement. White women have been helped with affirmative action far more than blacks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraC
T
The "women's movement" has the same problem. Feminist leaders who have power and make money by reinforcing the idea that women are victims in need of help. They're all for women unless they are the wrong kind of woman (conservative, Republican). Then they lift their leg to *iss on them.
It is one thing to charge that "black people" won't take "full" responsibility for the black drop outs, but quite another to come up with how black folks are suppose to take up such a responsibility. If you have a solution other than partisan bs, then I'm all ears.
Such as?
I don't see the Hellereque dilemma, someone needs to insure that hurdles of racial bias are eliminated and not allowed to arise. Someone has to provide a base for underprivileged individuals (regardless of skin color) to receive a quality education. Someone must ensure that the economy is maintained at a level where all can gain a foothold. As they say, you can't pull yourself with your own boot straps if you don't have a boot to begin with. In my opinion that someone is society, and in this country the instrument of the overall society is government and while it isn't the role or expectation that government can or should solve all public ills, it must provide and maintain the basis of a functioning society.
You say that success starts with the individual, but I don't know of a single solitary black person whose success was accomplished without government involvement. Even during the darkest days of Jim Crow, those dilapidated and underfunded schools had to exist before the desire for an education could even be entertained.
I used to think that the government was needed to be there to at least make the playing field leveled. Then, I realized how every time we allow the government to interfere in our lives, some how the government keeps making the same mistake. When do we realize that we don't need to government to teach us about morality, how to worship God, how to vote, and how wealth should be spread around, of course at the wealthy people's expense? The government was probably needed for helping black Americans up to the early 90s. But in 2010, I am sorry to say this, it's time for every American to take full responsibility for their success or not, and stop blaming the government, society, your skin color for the reason why you haven't made it. It's a matter of choosing to succeed or not.
You said that you can't pull yourself with your own boot straps if you don't have a boot to begin with, but if you don't have a boot? Does that mean, we continue use the excuse that you still can't pull yourself up? To me, that just sounds like another excuse to explain why a person can't or won't get out of poverty. If a person doesn't have a boot to start with, heck let him start with what he does have, HIS FEET FOR GOD'S SAKE.
Most people become middle classed or rich by doing one thing---working their butts off, having a dream or clear goal, and believing that they will and can achieve their dream with some connections or networking with others who did the same thing.
I am sorta sick and tired of hearing how the government needs to intervene in order to help people become successful, and once they do become successful, they have to spread their wealth in higher taxes so that the have nots who never can get out of their impoverished state, due to government entitlements, can feel good about being poor and disenfranchised as well.
There's a book by Carter Woodson, The Mis-Education of the Negro written almost 100 years ago, addresses this same topic, right before social programs were even thought of by our government, and the state of black Ameicans. I was blown away when some of the problems that faced black americans then, some how still applies in 2010...almost 100 years later. So where are we going?
I've noticed taht perhaps because of this, some black middle class people still purposely try to keep a black identity vs an integrated, mainstream American identity when they could very well do so. For non-black people, this is sometimes seen as self-segregation, espeically when they are middle or upper class and still have things like the BLACK engineers society or the BLACK doctors association or similar things when white people don't have these things. I don't think even Asian Americans have too many of these types of organizations once they are into the middle class.
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