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Yes by all means let's be vigilant, but I read the odds of getting killed by a terrorist are something on par with the odds of getting struck by lightning.
Eeekk! I heard on the news last week that the odds of getting struck by lightning were 1 in 3000-something. Those are not the smallest odds!
When I think back to pre-9/11, I remember freeways in LA being shut down to detonate things like pipe bombs. Where those placed by terrorists? Maybe big cities have always been vigilant while smaller places haven't been? I mean, big cities have always had bomb squads and things like that...
Eeekk! I heard on the news last week that the odds of getting struck by lightning were 1 in 3000-something. Those are not the smallest odds!
When I think back to pre-9/11, I remember freeways in LA being shut down to detonate things like pipe bombs. Where those placed by terrorists? Maybe big cities have always been vigilant while smaller places haven't been? I mean, big cities have always had bomb squads and things like that...
I had to check - here is an interesting excerpt from an article from the conservative CATO Institute, fall 2004. The point of the article is if you obsess about terrorism then that itself is a victory for the terrorists. One of the criticisms of the post Katrina FEMA lessons learned was that the agency was remodelled specifically to handle a terrorist attack and natural disaster response, which is a far more likely ocurrence in our country, was ignored.
"Even with the September 11 attacks included in the count, the number of Americans killed by international terrorism since the late 1960s (which is when the State Department began counting) is about the same as the number of Americans killed over the same period by lightning, accident-causing deer, or severe allergic reaction to peanuts," the article notes.
Last edited by bily4; 07-02-2007 at 10:04 AM..
Reason: include link
Although I agree with the complaints about the added vulnerabilities due to the lack of adequate border control, I believe that the Bush administration has done an excellent job of using intelligence processes to identify and terminate possible terrorist threats. I think that the efforts to try and prevent another attack have been fairly robust, and the results are self evident.
I think a lot of intelligent people who are not in the white house are working very hard to keep us safe.
Why have we not had a succesfull terrorist attack on US soil since 9/11?
That is a good question. Terrorism is really very easy, it need not be taking down a building or jetliner. It can be as simple as starting fires. You saw what a few fires did only couple of weeks ago. Set a hundred fires across the country in one day, easy. How about sniping, the cost of a few bullets and you bring a city to a halt. Then jump a thousand miles away and do it again, no pattern or reason. The least likely places, small towns where people feel safe.
That is the point of terrorism, to instill terror. Hijack a full fuel tank truck wire it up and drive it into a school full of children. Could you imagine if a coordinated strike like that was done in say one day. Hit like fifty schools across the country. It takes no brains or money to do it. You don't even need any kind of master bomb builders to do it. Any group of idiots so inclined can do it. Terrorism is easy, for some reason they just have not done it. But there is nothing we could do if they choose to. Life as we know it would change for good.
Terrorism is easy, for some reason they just have not done it. But there is nothing we could do if they choose to. Life as we know it would change for good.
The war on terror works not only have terrorists spent lots of resouces in Iraq and Afghanistan that could have been used here the times they have tried they've been stopped.
Here are a few examples we know of I'm sure there are more that we don't.
"December 2001: Richard Reid, a British citizen and self-described follower of Osama bin Laden, foiled an attempt to blow up a Paris-to-Miami flight with explosives hidden in his shoes. He pleaded guilty in 2002.
May 2002: Jose Padilla is arrested in Chicago on a return trip from Pakistan. Initially held as an enemy combatant and accused of planning to build a “dirty bomb,†he was formally charged with aiding foreign jihadists in a Miami court in 2005. His trial began May 14.
September 2002: The “Lackawanna Six,†American citizens of Yemeni descent living near Buffalo, N.Y., are arrested for allegedly having attended an al-Qaida camp in Afghanistan in the months before the Sept. 11 attacks. The six pleaded guilty in 2003 to providing material support to a terrorist organization.
May 2003: Iyman Faris of Columbus, Ohio, a naturalized U.S. citizen from Kashmir, pleads guilty to supporting al-Qaida. He was accused of planning to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge. He is sentenced to 20 years.
June 2003: In Virginia, the FBI charges a group of men with being part of a conspiracy to support holy war overseas. In all, 11 men eventually were convicted in what the government described as a “Virginia jihad network†that used paintball games as a form of training.
August 2004: U.S. authorities issue alert, announce evidence of a years-long plot to attack the New York Stock Exchange and other financial institutions in New York, Washington and Newark, N.J. They later accuse plotters of also planning attacks in England. Eventually, five men pleaded guilty in London, where alleged ringleader Dhiren Barot was convicted. At least one other man is awaiting trial.
August 2004: Two men are arrested on the eve of the Republican Convention in New York for allegedly plotting to blow up a busy subway station. James Elshafay, a U.S. citizen, eventually pleaded guilty and testified against the other man, Shahawar Matin Siraj, a Pakistani. Siraj was sentenced to 30 years in prison; Elshavy to five.
August 2004: Authorities arrest two leaders of a mosque in Albany, N.Y., and charge them with aiding in a purported plot to buy a shoulder-fired grenade launcher to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat. The former imam of the Masjid As-Salam mosque, Kurdish refugee Yassin Aref, and Mohammed Hossain, a mosque founder, were later found guilty to counts relating to money laundering and conspiracy.
June 2005: A Pakistani immigrant and his American-born son in Lodi, Calif., are arrested for allegedly lying to the FBI about the younger man’s training at a jihadist camp in Pakistan. Hamid Hayat, the son, was found guilty of supporting terrorism and lying to the FBI. He is seeking a new trial. The case against Umer Hayat, the father, ended in a mistrial; he later pleaded guilty to lying to a customs agent about trying to carry $28,000 into Pakistan.
August 2005: Four California men, one the founder of a radical Islamic prison group, are indicted for allegedly conspiring to attack Los Angeles-area military bases, synagogues and other targets. The men have pleaded not guilty and await trial.
February 2006: Three men are arrested in Toledo, Ohio, for allegedly providing material support to terrorists. One of the men is accused of downloading videos on the use of suicide-bomb vests.
April 2006: Two Georgia men are charged with material support of terrorism after allegedly videotaping buildings in the Washington area, including the Capitol and the World Bank, and sending the video to a London extremist active on jihadist Web sites.
June 2006: The FBI announces the arrests of seven men in Miami and Atlanta in what officials called the early stages of a plot to blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago, and destroy FBI offices and other buildings. All pleaded not guilty and are awaiting trial.
July 2006: U.S. authorities announce the arrest of Assem Hammoud, a Lebanese man they claim was plotting to bomb New York City train tunnels to flood the financial district.
March 2007: A Pentagon transcript is released indicating that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, confessed to that attack and a string of other terror plots, including that of Reid, during a military hearing at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
May 2007: Six men were arrested in an alleged plot to unleash a bloody rampage on Fort Dix in New Jersey. Five are charged with conspiring to kill military personnel and could face life in prison if convicted. The sixth faces up to 10 years in prison if he is convicted of weapons charges.
June 2007: Four Muslim men planned to destroy John F. Kennedy International Airport, kill thousands of people and trigger an economic catastrophe by blowing up a jet fuel artery that runs through residential neighborhoods. Three men were arrested and one was being sought in Trinidad."
The war on terror works not only have terrorists spent lots of resouces in Iraq and Afghanistan that could have been used here the times they have tried they've been stopped.
Here are a few examples we know of I'm sure there are more that we don't.
"December 2001: Richard Reid, a British citizen and self-described follower of Osama bin Laden, foiled an attempt to blow up a Paris-to-Miami flight with explosives hidden in his shoes. He pleaded guilty in 2002.
May 2002: Jose Padilla is arrested in Chicago on a return trip from Pakistan. Initially held as an enemy combatant and accused of planning to build a “dirty bomb,” he was formally charged with aiding foreign jihadists in a Miami court in 2005. His trial began May 14.
September 2002: The “Lackawanna Six,” American citizens of Yemeni descent living near Buffalo, N.Y., are arrested for allegedly having attended an al-Qaida camp in Afghanistan in the months before the Sept. 11 attacks. The six pleaded guilty in 2003 to providing material support to a terrorist organization.
May 2003: Iyman Faris of Columbus, Ohio, a naturalized U.S. citizen from Kashmir, pleads guilty to supporting al-Qaida. He was accused of planning to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge. He is sentenced to 20 years.
June 2003: In Virginia, the FBI charges a group of men with being part of a conspiracy to support holy war overseas. In all, 11 men eventually were convicted in what the government described as a “Virginia jihad network” that used paintball games as a form of training.
August 2004: U.S. authorities issue alert, announce evidence of a years-long plot to attack the New York Stock Exchange and other financial institutions in New York, Washington and Newark, N.J. They later accuse plotters of also planning attacks in England. Eventually, five men pleaded guilty in London, where alleged ringleader Dhiren Barot was convicted. At least one other man is awaiting trial.
August 2004: Two men are arrested on the eve of the Republican Convention in New York for allegedly plotting to blow up a busy subway station. James Elshafay, a U.S. citizen, eventually pleaded guilty and testified against the other man, Shahawar Matin Siraj, a Pakistani. Siraj was sentenced to 30 years in prison; Elshavy to five.
August 2004: Authorities arrest two leaders of a mosque in Albany, N.Y., and charge them with aiding in a purported plot to buy a shoulder-fired grenade launcher to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat. The former imam of the Masjid As-Salam mosque, Kurdish refugee Yassin Aref, and Mohammed Hossain, a mosque founder, were later found guilty to counts relating to money laundering and conspiracy.
June 2005: A Pakistani immigrant and his American-born son in Lodi, Calif., are arrested for allegedly lying to the FBI about the younger man’s training at a jihadist camp in Pakistan. Hamid Hayat, the son, was found guilty of supporting terrorism and lying to the FBI. He is seeking a new trial. The case against Umer Hayat, the father, ended in a mistrial; he later pleaded guilty to lying to a customs agent about trying to carry $28,000 into Pakistan.
August 2005: Four California men, one the founder of a radical Islamic prison group, are indicted for allegedly conspiring to attack Los Angeles-area military bases, synagogues and other targets. The men have pleaded not guilty and await trial.
February 2006: Three men are arrested in Toledo, Ohio, for allegedly providing material support to terrorists. One of the men is accused of downloading videos on the use of suicide-bomb vests.
April 2006: Two Georgia men are charged with material support of terrorism after allegedly videotaping buildings in the Washington area, including the Capitol and the World Bank, and sending the video to a London extremist active on jihadist Web sites.
June 2006: The FBI announces the arrests of seven men in Miami and Atlanta in what officials called the early stages of a plot to blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago, and destroy FBI offices and other buildings. All pleaded not guilty and are awaiting trial.
July 2006: U.S. authorities announce the arrest of Assem Hammoud, a Lebanese man they claim was plotting to bomb New York City train tunnels to flood the financial district.
March 2007: A Pentagon transcript is released indicating that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, the suspected mastermind of the Sept. 11 attacks, confessed to that attack and a string of other terror plots, including that of Reid, during a military hearing at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
May 2007: Six men were arrested in an alleged plot to unleash a bloody rampage on Fort Dix in New Jersey. Five are charged with conspiring to kill military personnel and could face life in prison if convicted. The sixth faces up to 10 years in prison if he is convicted of weapons charges.
June 2007: Four Muslim men planned to destroy John F. Kennedy International Airport, kill thousands of people and trigger an economic catastrophe by blowing up a jet fuel artery that runs through residential neighborhoods. Three men were arrested and one was being sought in Trinidad."
So what, how does that make what I said wrong?
If you park your $50,000 Mercedes in a parking lot there is nothing to prevent someone from ruining it if they are so inclined. You just have to go about your day hoping no one will do it. But, should someone be so inclined your car will be ruined. We can't stop anyone from doing simple terrorism here. They arrest a few people and claim they prevented some mysterious plot for propaganda purposes. Why would they announce it, if not to make you feel like you are safe and they are doing something?
Lets be honest here, if we started a thread here brainstorming what we would do if we were terrorists, it would be scary how easy it is depending on our objectives. The terrorists currently are just screwing up. Look at the ones in Great Britain last week. I have a machine shop, I an assure you if "I" built their bombs they would have gone off. Any idiot can make a cell phone trigger that will work every time I can't believe theirs didn't work. The one thing you can be certain of is, they are not going away and they will get smarter.
A question that often comes up. Ever the cynic, I would HAVE to say that, beyond the slightest doubt, we've so far avoided it by pushing the limits of our own laws, and no doubt exceeding them now and then. I've got to believe that, if some sort of surveillance wasn't going on that the general public doesn't know about, and if legal corners weren't being cut, it's inconceivable to me that any terrorist with half a brain wouldn't long ago have simply walked into the US with his suitcase nuke. Call it profiling, call it snooping, call it invading their privacy. So far, it's working. I stand on principle now just a little less than I might have once.
Does this feeling bother me? I suppose it disappoints me to a degree; I'd like to think we are all on the moral high ground and beyond reproach. But if the prowlers are coming around my house each night, I guess I'm not going to spend TOO much time second-guessing the cops. All I know is, so far the "bad guys" haven't climbed through the bathroom window, and for now, I'll accept that. Exactly what goes on out there in the dark, on my front lawn, isn't clear-- but so far I'm happy with the results....
LoL Ok moving right along, Sorry to have bothered you.
You like being told what you want to hear. Most of those so called plots they uncover are little more then pipe dreams anyway. They listen to some phone calls by some idiots talking about about plots and they find some pictures of targets and chalk it up to a victory, then can't wait to announcement it. Some of these plots are so far fetched they would have never gotten off the ground anyway.
I had to check - here is an interesting excerpt from an article from the conservative CATO Institute, fall 2004. The point of the article is if you obsess about terrorism then that itself is a victory for the terrorists. One of the criticisms of the post Katrina FEMA lessons learned was that the agency was remodelled specifically to handle a terrorist attack and natural disaster response, which is a far more likely ocurrence in our country, was ignored.
"Even with the September 11 attacks included in the count, the number of Americans killed by international terrorism since the late 1960s (which is when the State Department began counting) is about the same as the number of Americans killed over the same period by lightning, accident-causing deer, or severe allergic reaction to peanuts," the article notes.
Have not yet checked these out, Bily4, but will take your word as to what they say. It got me thinking about or own human psychology. I am well aware of the random nature of deaths each year by gun violence, plane crashes, heart attack, and on and on. Still, there is something extra disturbing about the purposeful actions of a group of "sneaks" so infuriated by hatred for us that they're determined to blow us up as we go about our daily lives. Somehow such a scenario is more disturbing than the "random" one.
Reminds me of an article I read about the clinic in Minnesota that rehabiltates torture victims. They spoke of the devastating psycholgical damage when one is tortured by uniformed government agents, far worse emotionally than if the same thing happened, but done by random criminals.
By the way, I've also read that Israel, a supposedly prosperous, well educated nation, has an extremely high rate of psychological and emotional problems, apparently due to the simple fact of having to go about your daily routine knowing that any hour of any day, you or your loved ones could be suddenly incinerated on a bus, in school, or at work, by people living among you that simply want you dead. There's a huge psychological toll, though I'd doubt that the actual death rate is as high as "natural" reasons...
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I heard on the news last week that the odds of getting struck by lightning were 1 in 3000-something. Those are not the smallest odds! 
what he said
