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It's not bull. My mom lives in Howard County. My brother lives there. My sister lives there. Not sure which part of Howard County you live in. But my brother's home is still appraised for $900K in Ellicott City (he just refinanced). He purchased for 1 million "at peak). My Mom's home is still $700K (again just refinanced). My sister's is still $800K over in Clarksville, MD. And my other sister's home over in Fulton is still over 1 million. And yes, she's still in one of those McMansions with the Toll Brother's home with 1 acre. She purchased for in 2003 for close to 1 million. It's still the same price.
Of course, you have Columbia MD that has mix housing units that can go between 200-500K. But if you want to be in the better school zones, you are going to have to pay $700K and up in Howard County.
Yes, Howard County used to be cheap to live in, especially in the late 80's, early 90s where you could have gotten a single family home for 200K with 2 acres. Those days are long gone.
There are 65 homes available right now in the River Hill neighborhood of Columbia and a few more on the west side of Rte. 108 from $500-750k. This beauty just sold for $710k. Take a close look. It has more 3,000 sq. ft. of living space and an in-ground pool for goodness sake!
The average American homeowner lives in a 3 bedroom/2 bath house with less than 2,000 sq. ft. In Clarksville, there are very few homes that meet that criteria. I stand by my contention that the community is not middle-class. It is most definitely upper-class.
As far as your relatives, bear in mind that assessed value and market value are two very different things. In the current economic climate, they would probably find it very difficult to sell at those prices. But, of course, the county isn't going to lower the assessment to be in line with real value, as that would cut into tax revenues.
BTW, I lived in Ellicott City. Please don't try to convince me that the only good schools in Howard County require residency in an upper class neighborhood. I know better.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 09-13-2010 at 02:31 PM..
who cares? what on earth does Manhattan rent have to do with national tax brackets?
That's why I said from my very first post that you can't just come up with an arbitrary figure and say that it's wealthy or not. You have to look at other variables. People that don't like New York will always just want to punish people who live there, but that doesn't make it right. You might not care about what happens in my city, but people who live here do care. They're Americans too.
hell, it seems to me that high taxes on $250k+ earners is exactly what is needed to bring NYC rents down!
Nothing is going to bring the rents down. They are what they are, and people go to great lengths to grab them when they become available. Many of the people here aren't even New Yorkers anymore. Owning something here means never having to worry that somebody from somewhere isn't going to come along and pay a very high rent. We complain about it more in humorous tones than realistic ones at this point. We know what we're getting for the money, and most of us are more than OK with that. Nobody paying rent here can't be replaced, and that will not change.
There are 65 homes available right now in "Clarksville" (or rather the River Hill neighborhood of Columbia) from $500-750k. This beauty just sold for $710k. Take a close look. It has more 3,000 sq. ft. of living space and an in-ground pool for goodness sake!
The average American homeowner lives in a 3 bedroom/2 bath house with less than 2,000 sq. ft. In Clarksville, there are four houses on the market or recently sold that meet that criteria, and they are ~$400k or less. I stand by my contention that Clarksville as a whole is not a middle-class area.
As far as your relatives, bear in mind that assessed value and market value are two very different things. In the current economic climate, they would probably find it very difficult to sell at those prices. But, of course, the county isn't going to lower the assessment to be in line with real value, as that would cut into tax revenues.
BTW, I lived in Ellicott City. Please don't try to convince me that the only good schools in Howard County require residency in an upper class neighborhood. I know better.
I am not talking about Maryland bull crap 3 year assessed values. Like homes assessed at 2007 prices and Maryland phased it in over 3 years. I am very were aware of how Maryland assesses their homes. Plus it's in the Howard County constitution where they can't lower their assessment by more than 10% to maintain property tax revenue. Heads up, government wins. Tails, government still wins in the tax revenue department.
These homes were just refinanced in June/July 2010 prices and obviously with June/July 2010 appraisals because of the low interest rates.
And these homes range from 3500 square feet to 5000 square feet. My brother's home in Ellicott City is huge. It's 5000 square feet plus a 2000 square foot so that's why it's over 900K.
My cousin just purchased a 4000-4500 square foot home in Ellicott City (but the home is much older than my brother) for $680K. It's just expensive living there.
Of course you can buy a single family home in Howard County Maryland for less than $500K. But you are looking at homes that were built in the 1980s/early 1990s and need some updating. Even my cousins new home was built in 1998 and needs some updating already.
I am not talking about Maryland bull crap 3 year assessed values. Like homes assessed at 2007 prices and Maryland phased it in over 3 years. I am very were aware of how Maryland assesses their homes. Plus it's in the Howard County constitution where they can't lower their assessment by more than 10% to maintain property tax revenue. Heads up, government wins. Tails, government still wins in the tax revenue department.
These homes were just refinanced in June/July 2010 prices and obviously with June/July 2010 appraisals because of the low interest rates.
And these homes range from 3500 square feet to 5000 square feet. My brother's home in Ellicott City is huge. It's 5000 square feet plus a 2000 square foot so that's why it's over 900K.
My cousin just purchased a 4000-4500 square foot home in Ellicott City (but the home is much older than my brother) for $680K. It's just expensive living there.
Of course you can buy a single family home in Howard County Maryland for less than $500K. But you are looking at homes that were built in the 1980s/early 1990s and need some updating. Even my cousins new home was built in 1998 and needs some updating already.
What does any of that have to do with what income levels qualify as middle class? My point was that Clarksville is NOT a middle-class community, by any stretch of the imagination. Isn't the entire point of this thread about what income qualifies as middle-class?
You can't look at River Hill and decide that since homes there are extremely expensive (by national standards) that $250k/year is middle class. I don't care how pricey and huge the houses are in those neighborhoods, it's simply not.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 09-13-2010 at 02:48 PM..
Most Americans have no clue how their fiat based monetary system works. The US dollar has lost 70% of its value due to the private Federal Reserve system printing money like crazy. And you're right it's the rich who have stock in all these banks and the WallStreet speculators who have made a killing from this monetary ponzi scheme. But instead of seeing our monetary system for what it is......everyone else needs to simply work harder and "make it".
If you compare what $1 could buy in 1950 compared to now than yes your dollar buys less. Much of that is due to inflation. The advantage of a fiat based currency is that there are two criteria to base how much money is worth. One is to compare it based on inflation. The other is to judge it based on its exchange rate compared to other currencies. That actually means more in a globalized economy than inflation does. Over the last several years despite the economic problems this country has experienced that is relatively stable.
Despite you aversion to fiat based currencies the overall global economic system has been much more stable with fiat money than basing monetary value on the gold standard.
I am not talking about Maryland bull crap 3 year assessed values. Like homes assessed at 2007 prices and Maryland phased it in over 3 years. I am very were aware of how Maryland assesses their homes. Plus it's in the Howard County constitution where they can't lower their assessment by more than 10% to maintain property tax revenue. Heads up, government wins. Tails, government still wins in the tax revenue department.
These homes were just refinanced in June/July 2010 prices and obviously with June/July 2010 appraisals because of the low interest rates.
And these homes range from 3500 square feet to 5000 square feet. My brother's home in Ellicott City is huge. It's 5000 square feet plus a 2000 square foot so that's why it's over 900K.
My cousin just purchased a 4000-4500 square foot home in Ellicott City (but the home is much older than my brother) for $680K. It's just expensive living there.
Of course you can buy a single family home in Howard County Maryland for less than $500K. But you are looking at homes that were built in the 1980s/early 1990s and need some updating. Even my cousins new home was built in 1998 and needs some updating already.
If you are talking about 4,000 and 5,000 foot + square foot homes, I think you have completely left the middle class discussion.....
rents are basic supply and demand. Demand is the ability to pay. The ability to pay in Manhattan hinges strongly upon the astronomical pay packages in the finance, insurance, and real estate industries.
cut down those incomes and you cut down rents.
we should have cut down those incomes, by allowing about 10 financial institutions to fail, which would have likely set off a chain reaction that cleaned out New York City and its imbalanced economy.
My point was that Clarksville is NOT a middle-class community, by any stretch of the imagination. Isn't the entire point of this thread about what income qualifies as middle-class?
You can't look at River Hill and decide that since homes there are extremely expensive (by national standards) that $250k/year is middle class. I don't care how pricey the houses are in those neighborhoods, it's simply not.
Exactly.......$250K is hardly a middle class income in America regardless of where you live.
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