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Old 09-14-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Long Island NY
556 posts, read 622,979 times
Reputation: 394

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Don't forget the Alternative Minimum Tax-AMT-that was enacted in 1969 to punish high earners.
Families earning more than $160,000 are already penalized. Deductions are lost, resulting in higher
tax rates. That was a temporary law in 1969. Each year it's trapping more and more families/
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:13 AM
 
Location: The D-M-V area
13,691 posts, read 18,458,970 times
Reputation: 9596
250k in Los Angeles compared to St. Louis makes a big difference.

Also how much debt you have, how many dependents you have.

Taxes also make a big difference. Making those regular estimated tax payments are not fun.

More money, more problems.
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:15 AM
 
646 posts, read 394,075 times
Reputation: 129
but what about my point, in that someone could be paying out lots of money in child support. people making that much money can have situations too. they can be paying for a retirement home for an aging parent, ect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Oh, yeah?



We barely felt "squeezed" with two in college one year, both, at the time in private colleges, on less than half that! And yes, we've saved for retirement, we have a mortgage and at the time owned four late model cars.
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:52 AM
 
15,095 posts, read 8,639,316 times
Reputation: 7443
I'm so glad you outlined this so nicely ... now let's break it down a little further, shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGene View Post
Let's look at that.

[1] In 2009, the poverty level for individuals was $10,590 - for a family of four, it was $21,203. Middle class clearly means higher household incomes.
So, according to these "statistics" and the experts (who I reckon make quite a bit more) the poverty line for a family of 4 is $21,203 ... I'VE SOLVED THE PROBLEM!!!!! Let's give every one of them a check for $5 ... and we'll have eliminated poverty in the United States for roughly 300 Million. Of course, I hope they'll spend those 5 extra bucks wisely, like maybe buying a power ball ticket ... since they'll probably lose the 15K a year in assistance they are receiving to help them survive.

But aside the wiseguy tilt ... I hope you get the greater point here ... that such nonsense is really rather useless in terms of practicality ... and that old saying about statistics ... "figures lie, and liars figure" certainly applies here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGene View Post
When reporting on household income, the Census Bureau breaks down into five levels. In 2007, the middle division was a range of $36,000 to $57,660. Most (or all?) economists believe this is a far too narrow range to define middle class. But if you take off the lowest division and the highest division, and look at the three middle divisions, that's still just a range of $19,178 to $91,705. And that's no where close to $250,000.
Ooops ... didn't the $19k just creep into the poverty category? There goes those "figures" again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGene View Post
[2] In 2008, the Census Bureau reported median income at $50,233. According to the Pew Research Center, middle class income could be defined as being that range of income stretching from 75% to 150% of the median income, and that would give the middle class a range of $37,675 to $75,350. Most people would think that the top income is way too small to be considered the top of the middle class range, and I agree. Still, it's a LONG way to $250,000.
Well, to me, the obvious first thought was that the $37k for a family of 4 was way to low to even be considered middle class ... but this does illustrate what I've been saying all along ... the lower you set the bottom end of the scale, the greater the upper end looks by comparison ... no matter how low that might actually be. Again, to a homeless person, $37K might be considered extremely wealthy when your idea of a luxury is a good coat and a sleeping bag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGene View Post
[3] Other views include those of Gary Burtless of the Brookings Institution, who estimates that middle class income can be defined as starting at one-half of median income and going up to twice the median income, or a range from $25,117 to $100,466. And Frank Levy of MIT suggests that middle class income can be defined as having sufficient income to afford to own a house, a car, and the ability to pay all necessary bills. He estimates that families are middle class if their income falls between $30,000 and $90,000. Again, this is a LONG way from $250,000.
Again ... you want to measure from the bottom up to $250k, which is fine if your intent is to prove just how rich $250K makes someone. But the real deal here is that the $25,117 figure MR. Burtless defines as beginning middle class is only about $300 a month away from those labeled as poverty stricken! Of course, this is far more generous of Mr. Burtless than I was when I suggested giving them all an extra 5 bucks to cure their poverty ... but I don't think the extra $295 a month will propel them into financial salvation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGene View Post
[4] People often tend to self-define themselves as middle class despite their income levels. According to surveys conducted by Pew Research, 4 out of 10 with incomes under $20,000 think of themselves as middle class, and more than 6 in 10 with incomes over $150,000 identify themselves as middle class.
No they don't. I think people trying to raise a family of 4 on $25k may not be geniuses, but I think they are smart enough to recognize that the academics and intellectuals that want to label them middle class have their heads in a position which affords them a close up view of their own colons, and everyone else should have the basic common sense to recognize this too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGene View Post
Now, I'm sure that there are people out there making $250,000 a year and who are struggling to make ends meet. Those struggles may include a very expensive home (or a second, vacation home), vehicles, perhaps Ivy League tuition, and so forth. But does the fact that they make "only" $250,000 somehow mean they are middle class? No. No matter what the dollar amounts are, if your income is such that you fall within the top 2-3% in income of all Americans, you are not in the middle class.
Total Bull $ht. And here's why ... you only touch on "expenses" briefly ..and cite such things as expensive homes, vacation homes, Ivy league school tuition as possible (read: personal extravagances that are all optional and choices not worthy of consideration). And this demonstrates the obvious bias of your opinion. But there are MANY other potential "expenses" that you neglect to mention ... special needs children perhaps ... the care of elderly parents ... catastrophic illness of a spouse .... all of which can drain enormous amounts of money, far exceeding that of a vacation home or high end school tuition. For those who are on the low end of the income scale, programs exist for assistance in such matters, but not available to the $250K family who will be required to handle this themselves.

And this is the fundamental and OBVIOUS flaw in looking only at "Income" to define one's status, while not considering expenses. It's fine and dandy for you to automatically dismiss the expenses of those making $250k as extravagances ... but that's just not a legitimate position, as all expenses aren't necessarily choices or extravagances.

Businesses aren't treated that way ... so why should people be? Business "income" is revenue minus expenses ... or "profit". While personal income is taxed according to gross income, minus government defined exemptions.

Moreover ... a business can claim their office space, and costs as deductions, along with salaries etc. According to your line of thinking ... we should automatically decide what those should be before hand, right? That's what you do with people? Does Corporation XYZ NEED to have their offices in Trump Tower paying 5 times the cost of lessor space that would suffice? Do they need to pay the executives 10 Million Dollar Bonuses? (according to the government that answer is not only yes .. but in the case of financial establishments ... ALL of us should foot the bill for these bonuses from our tax dollars that YOU WANT TO INCREASE on the sucker making $250K with the sick and disabled child).

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenGene View Post
To answer the OP's question, yes, an annual income of $250,000 makes a person part of the upper class. Whether that person manages to live within their means or not is an entirely different question.

References:

What Is an Average Middle Class Salary Range? | eHow.com

Inside the Middle Class: Bad Times Hit the Good Life - Pew Social & Demographic Trends

http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RS22627_20070320.pdf
So it is written, so let it be done ... according to you .. your misguided opinions, supported by the statistical mumbo jumbo spewed by intellectuals and academics who sit behind their fancy digs at the various think tanks and universities who no doubt enjoy their tenured lifetime guarantee of employment that few others can expect to receive ... AND not one of them would survive 5 minutes trying to raise a family of 4 on $25,000 that they claim is "middle class".

Brilliant ... huh? Yes, indeedy.
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:55 AM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,190 posts, read 19,470,309 times
Reputation: 5305
Quote:
Originally Posted by independentsucka View Post
well, $250,000 isn't what you take home. you figure, 50% of that is automatically gobbled up in taxes, between fed, social security, state, property, sales, ect. so let's say you take home $10k per month. now let's say, you have an ex wife, who "takes care" of your two kids. we're down to $5k now. now let's say you live in NY, where rents can be upwards of $4k per month. $1k per month in spending money. that's uber rich!

Well if you are paying alimony you are deducting that anyway from your taxes.
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,190 posts, read 19,470,309 times
Reputation: 5305
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
oh please, a person who make 50k pays nearly zero in frederal income tax

I make 60,000, and paid zero in federal income tax...in fact the feds paid me
Much of that depends on marriage situation, children, itemized deductions such as mortgage, interest and property taxes, etc.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,190 posts, read 19,470,309 times
Reputation: 5305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
You fail to understand everything. I am simply pointing out that a $250K salary is very relative to geography and household situations. As you apparently did not realize this simple, basic fact, your desire to stereotype is flawed. Now you know it and can proceed with your rant, I mean analysis, on a more accurate basis. The words you are looking for are "Thank you."
It is to a point, but even in the higher income areas its more than double the median household income. Fairfax and Loudoun Counta Virginia are the counties with the two highest median household incomes in the country, both around $110,000.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,190 posts, read 19,470,309 times
Reputation: 5305
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
but the FACT is that a household could have 2 earners...both of a WORKINGCLASS status, and the HOUSEHOLD income be 200k or more

just because a cop in mississippi doesnt make 125k, doesnt mean that a cop on long island isnt ALLOWED to make it

YOU CAN NOT in any resembulance of sincerity call a 2 income household of a cop and a teacher (both workingclass professions) and call them RICH, just because they live in a good area that pays a decent salary of 125k each for a total household salary of 250k

sorry, but 250k is not rich.....over 1 mill is... but not 250k


heck a class a mechanic at a dealership is making 32 an hour...that's 80k just for a workingclas stiff
$250,000 is more than 2.5 times the median household income on Long Island. Not to mention with the 28% bracket being pushed upward, the AMT patch as well as property tax deductions, mortgage deductions, etc, any tax increase is unlikely to hit a married couple on LI until they are somewhere over the $300,000 mark.
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:39 PM
 
15,095 posts, read 8,639,316 times
Reputation: 7443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
Oh, yeah?



We barely felt "squeezed" with two in college one year, both, at the time in private colleges, on less than half that! And yes, we've saved for retirement, we have a mortgage and at the time owned four late model cars.
Hey ... don't forget the 6K per month for Grandma's nursing home ... or did you just say screw Grandma, let Medicare and the State put her in one of those state approved holding pens ... where she can lay in bed and drool for the last 5 years of her life?

Perhaps you were fortunate that your children didn't fall victim to the epidemic of autism that is sweeping the nation with increases of 500%, along with the added expenses of that.

Stop deciding everyone's situation based on yours ... this attitude is sickening, and you should be ashamed of yourself.
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Old 09-14-2010, 01:54 PM
 
10,854 posts, read 9,304,767 times
Reputation: 3122
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
oh please, a person who make 50k pays nearly zero in frederal income tax

I make 60,000, and paid zero in federal income tax...in fact the feds paid me
That is TOTALLY dependent on if you are single or married and if you are married how many dependents you have. An argument can be made the single high income people with no depedents subsidized the tax payments of married income earners with children.
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