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Old 09-14-2010, 07:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
NO !!!!!!
Perish the thought.

There is not enough bullion to support trade.
World wide supply of gold bullion is estimated at 5.5 billion ounces.
World population is 6.7 billion.
Do the math.
That's less than ONE OUNCE per capita.

You can't account for trade with less than one ounce per capita.

Small change would have to be denominated in molecules of gold.

And it won't work if limited to the USA.
Fort Knox depository has only 147.4 million ounces - less than 1/2 ounce per American.

Based on the value established by the Coinage Act of 1792, that computes to less than $10 per capita.

Want to work for $5 per year?
--- about a quarter coin sized amount of gold

(assuming that the rich would have the lion's share of the gold)
Then Ron Paul is wrong for pushing the gold standard back. So here's a case of damned if we do, damned if we don't it looks like. What is there left to do?
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Then Ron Paul is wrong for pushing the gold standard back. So here's a case of damned if we do, damned if we don't it looks like. What is there left to do?
Precious metal coin is no solution, sad to say.

Most people are unaware that under American law, people have the power to create their own money. Even Congress lacks that power.

The "other" Solution: private promissory notes.
A common example is a coupon for a free item or service. Fine print on said coupon will state 1/20 of a cent cash value - regardless of the actual value.

If people awoke to their legal power to create their own medium of exchange, denominated in that which they can do or produce, they would side step the money drought.

Such a private money system would only work within small communities where the issuers and traders are known for their "creditworthiness" (history of honorable behavior). Those who are not trustworthy - they have to deal in cash... whatever that will be.

However, banks might become "coupon clearinghouses" where they'd discount private notes, and exchange them for widely circulating bank notes.

As long as usury is not allowed, such discounting won't be a problem.
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Old 09-14-2010, 07:54 PM
 
25,021 posts, read 27,938,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Precious metal coin is no solution, sad to say.

Most people are unaware that under American law, people have the power to create their own money. Even Congress lacks that power.

The "other" Solution: private promissory notes.
A common example is a coupon for a free item or service. Fine print on said coupon will state 1/20 of a cent cash value - regardless of the actual value.

If people awoke to their legal power to create their own medium of exchange, denominated in that which they can do or produce, they would side step the money drought.

Such a private money system would only work within small communities where the issuers and traders are known for their "creditworthiness" (history of honorable behavior). Those who are not trustworthy - they have to deal in cash... whatever that will be.

However, banks might become "coupon clearinghouses" where they'd discount private notes, and exchange them for widely circulating bank notes.

As long as usury is not allowed, such discounting won't be a problem.
How to Return to the Gold Standard | The Freeman | Ideas On Liberty
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:17 AM
 
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Jetgraphics. I see and learned something new, but still can't explain my silver certificiate which is not a note, and says no where on it it's an note. I am not certain 1957 is the last year of these, but mine is that date. The term silver cert, was to mean the paper was backed in silver and back then you could get silver in the bank a paper cert for a silver dollar.

And then maybe you need to see this link.
Coinage Act of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am a tad too old for the typical name calling that can happen so I didn't take it as a slight on my ego. I never knew silver coins were not legal tender either.
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:28 AM
 
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Ron Paul does not want a gold standard. He wants a hybrid system i.e. part of our system backed by precious metals and part of the system backed by a more flexible "something". But what he does want is complete and 100% transparency of the Federal Reserve, how much money they print and where it goes.

Why did the FED quit publishing M3 numbers?
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,209,414 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac_Muz View Post
Jetgraphics. I see and learned something new, but still can't explain my silver certificiate which is not a note, and says no where on it it's an note. I am not certain 1957 is the last year of these, but mine is that date. The term silver cert, was to mean the paper was backed in silver and back then you could get silver in the bank a paper cert for a silver dollar.

And then maybe you need to see this link.
Coinage Act of 1965 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I am a tad too old for the typical name calling that can happen so I didn't take it as a slight on my ego. I never knew silver coins were not legal tender either.
No personal animus intended.
I didn't say that the silver certificate was a note.
But it is not a dollar, either.
And it can't pay down the national debt, due to demonetization of silver in 1873.
The "little people" can use it, but gubmint can't.
Legal tender and lawful money are not necessarily the same thing.
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Old 09-15-2010, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
The "Freeman" article is wholly absurd.
It would require a complete rewrite of laws, the constitution, and a butt whoopin' between creditors and debtors.

The common belief that money is a storehouse of value is hard to shake.

The problem that all "hard money" proponents cannot address: the growth in the marketplace versus a fixed and finite money token system.

The glib claim that we just "revalue" the metallic coin to maintain proportionality falls flat. It inevitably means that each subsequent revaluation will hurt workers, who will be paid less for more, and debtors will be faced with owing proportionally more while earning less.

And frankly, worldwide supply of gold is roughly 5.3 billion ounces. With a world population at 6.9 billion, that's less than one ounce per capita.
No matter how HIGH you peg gold, in trade value, it boils down to insufficient quantity to account for trade.

And "small change" would have to be denominated in micrograms, or less.

Money should not be a "thing" of value. Money is a medium of exchange, an accounting system, that facilitates trade of real goods and services.

Money is an abstraction, it is not real, and should not be made from any finite thing in the marketplace.

To make one's money out of a scarce and precious metal, at high cost, is like charging for tick marks on a tally sheet.

When you run out of tick marks, you can't tally anymore.
Likewise, when you run out of scarce money, regardless of the marketplace, trade is impaired. Of course, scarce money is ideal for those who extend credit and loan at usury. But that's still not a good thing.
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
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Money Reference:
Article 1, Section 8. U.S. Constitution.
The Congress shall have Power
...To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;
...To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

Article 1, Section 10. U.S. Constitution
No State shall ... coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any ... Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, ...
Note: only gold and silver coin PAY DEBT. And if Congress had the power to create money, it wouldn't need the power to borrow it. Congress can only coin money (stamp bullion).
TITLE 12,CHAPTER 3,SUBCHAPTER XII,sec. 411. Issuance to reserve banks; nature of obligation; redemption
" Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in LAWFUL MONEY on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank."
The dollar bill (FRN) is an IOU, issued on the authority of Congress to BORROW money.
Ahem - where's the lawful money lent to the Congress?
LAWFUL MONEY - "The terms 'lawful money' and 'lawful money of the United States' shall be construed to mean gold or silver coin of the United States..."
Title 12 United States Code, Sec. 152.

"Dollars, or units; each to be of the value of a Spanish milled as the same is now current, and to contain three hundred and seventy-one grains and four-sixteenths parts of a grain of pure, or four hundred and sixteen grains of standard, silver."
"Eagles—each to be of the value of ten dollars or units, and to contain two hundred and forty-seven grains and four eighths of a grain of pure, or two hundred and seventy grains of standard gold."
--- Sec. 9, Coinage Act of 1792, January 1792
According to Title 31 of the U.S. code, a silver dollar complies with the original Coinage Act.
31 USC Sec. 5112. Denominations, specifications, and design of coins
(e)(1) ...weight 31.103 grams;
(e)(4) have inscriptions ... 1 Oz. Fine Silver ... One Dollar
Fort Knox Depository (allegedly) holds 147.4 million ounces of gold bullion, if coined, would amount to approximately 3 billion dollars (pursuant to the Coinage Act of 1792, et seq.).
World wide bullion is estimated at 5.3 billion ounces, which computes to 106 billion dollars.
Where's the 13 trillions in gold coin, lent to the Congress?
Where's the 650 billion ounces of gold money "borrowed" by Congress?
[Don't confuse the dollar bill price for gold bullion. Dollar bills were repudiated in 1933, and have no par value - they're worthless.]
REAL MONEY - Money which has real metallic, intrinsic value as distinguished from paper currency, checks and drafts.
Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1264

MONEY - In usual and ordinary acceptation it means coins and paper currency used as a circulating medium of exchange, and does not embrace notes, bonds, evidences of debt, or other personal or real estate. Lane v. Railey, 280 Ky. 319, 133 S.W. 2d 74, 79, 81.
Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1005

NOTE - An instrument containing an express and absolute promise of signer (i.e. maker) to pay to a specified person or order, or bearer, a definite sum of money at a specified time. An instrument that is a promise to pay other than a certificate of deposit. U.C.C. 3-104(2)(d)
Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1060

TENDER - An offer of money ... Legal tender is that kind of coin, money, or circulating medium which the law compels a creditor to accept in payment of his debt, when tendered by the debtor in the right amount.
Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Ed. p. 1467
[Note: FRNs are legal tender on the obligated party of those notes - the Federal government. . . AND the 305 million enumerated socialists.]
"Federal reserve notes are legal tender in absence of objection thereto."
MacLeod v. Hoover (1925) 159 La 244, 105 So. 305
All duly enumerated American socialists cannot object to the tender of the notes that THEY are obligated parties to. (thanks to FICA)

Recapping:
  • Lawful money = gold / silver coin (aka real money)
  • Money = lawful money or currency (i.e., certificates which are receipts for real money in the vault)
  • Notes are not money, by law

The soon to be 14 trillion dollar public debt cannot be paid with debt instruments (FRNs). Silver was demonetized in 1873, so we can't use silver dollars. There is not enough gold bullion in the world to pay it. Nor can Congress question its validity despite being impossible to repay.
14th amendment, Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned.
What does it really mean?
The American people have been systematically robbed for over 3 generations by usurers and by profligate idiots in the government, who blindly entered into impossible contracts, that can not be questioned, and who have instituted socialist chains that no recipient dare rip off.

Welcome to the collapsing United Socialist States of America, soon to be the People's Democratic Socialist Republic of America. Repeat after me, "WE LOVE YOU, BIG BROTHER!"
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Old 09-15-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: Prepperland
19,029 posts, read 14,209,414 times
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In case the preceding torrent of legalese is gobblydegook, let me sum it up :
Since 1935, all duly enumerated human resources became obligated parties on the public debt.
The public debt, due to usury, is an impossible contract.
The public debt, due to law, is an impossible to pay obligation.
The public debt, due to the USCON, cannot be questioned as to its validity.

We have been "voluntary slaves" since 1935, paying a skim to the creditor (debt service) on an impossible to repay debt. We're no better than sharecroppers, obligated to be "in commerce" in everything, even to traveling on the public highways. And to placate the mob, "entitled masses" are bribed with socialist benefits.

The trustees in bankruptcy, the Congress, have been well rewarded for their stewardship of the Creditor's chattel property - US.

And it was all done with our consent, according to their public records.

[head smack]
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:56 PM
 
19,023 posts, read 25,969,090 times
Reputation: 7365
You just convinced me that I don't know anything........ really. OUCH!
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