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Old 09-16-2010, 09:32 PM
 
203 posts, read 278,763 times
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Abortion

I was looking at this Gallup poll on abortion. Only the fringes in the abortion debate take an all or nothing view on it. The middle ground, those that want it to be legal with restrictions, is the largest group. Yet, America has the most libertarian abortion laws in the world and has no limit on when an abortion can happen nor any requirement for a doctor or team of doctors to sign off for an abortion. The only limit is on a specific procedure but as long as that specific procedure is not used, there is no limit on an abortion.

Many liberals on here talk about how socially liberal Europe is and how they have lower abortion rates. None ever mention that France does not allow abortion after 12 weeks except when a doctor signs off on it. In Britain it is 24 weeks. In Sweden, 21. In Germany it was completely illegal until the re-unification. It was legalized as a compromise with East Germany. But, it is restricted in Germany just like everywhere else in Europe.

The Gallup poll consistently shows that more than 80% of Americans believe third trimester abortion should be illegal. Yet, it would be nearly impossible to outlaw third trimester abortions because of the around 10% that believe it should be legal.

About 70% believe that second trimester should be illegal.

The opinion shifts for first trimester to 66% in favor.

One of the largest voting blocs in the US is the Roman Catholic vote. It is one of the key swing groups. Prior to Roe v Wade, it went reliably Democrat because of the Democrats commitment to many parts of Catholic social teachings. In Europe, it is possible for Catholics to not have to compromise their faith and be on the left. Many pro-life Catholics are a part of Labour and Socialist parties in Europe. A man like Joe Biden would have been able to get elected on his economic and social platform in Europe and stayed true to his faith. It is only in America where people have to choose between one or the other. He would not even have to make it an issue at all. The restrictions largely limit the numbers of abortions that do occur. It just is not an issue like it is here.

Wouldnt a move to restrict abortion based on trimester encourage more Catholics that vote conservative based on abortion to move left? Conversely, would the liberal wing of the Democratic party really desert the party for agreeing to restrictions on abortion?

Particularly with a growing Hispanic population that trends pro-life, wouldnt it not be a good idea for Democrats to try to encourage that group to vote for them?

An interesting thing is that many liberals look to Europe. They say that every civilized nation has universal health care. Europe has generous welfare and small militaries. Europe is tolerant sexually and allows gay marriage in many places. Yet, none say they want to have the same policy as Europe does for abortion. On just about every major issue, liberals admire the policies of Europeans. They talk of the low abortion rates in Europe but never of the restrictive laws on abortion.

In my opinion, it is due to the Puritan influence in America that prevents compromise on an issue like abortion. Even if people refuse to admit it, Americans are Puritan. Whether we are liberal or conservative, we are Puritans. From strict drinking laws, to tobacco bans, to warning labels, to the outrage felt by all sides of the debate when they perceive an injustice has been done in society. Americans, like the Puritans, are tolerant as long as you stay out of what we are trying to do. The Puritans tolerated the Quakers until the Quakers started to try to convert Puritans. Likewise, we in America are intolerant of the opposite viewpoints. The simple presence of a liberal and conservative viewpoint is a threat that can not be tolerated to the other side. Compromise and middle ground is for those that sympathize with the other side. Americans take politics more personally and use it as an identity. When you debate an American on a political issue, chances are the American will be quite passionate and view the issue personally. When you debate a European, they do not take politics as personally and wont feel personally slighted by a disagreement in opinion.

The Puritan spirit is the what drove the American Revolution, the Civil War, the American drive to make the world safe for Democracy, the fight against communism, the war on drugs, the war on terror and now, the fight between liberal and conservative. When you take out foreign powers to fight, Americans will eventually over time develop a divide between people that think their way is the only way. In the US Civil War, it happened when the balance of power tipped irreversibly to the Republicans and Union supporters. Today, we will have the same dynamics. It might take a long time, but as long as we remain in this divide and have the Puritan spirit we will eventually fall into a civil war when one side takes a greater share in the balance of power.

The American belief in hard work and the belief that anyone can be able to do anything and rise to the top is a very Puritan one. Then again, so is banning things, change things and creating a stigma against things deemed to be part of an unjust society. Look at American sports. When we find a rule that creates an unjust situation, we change the rule. In world sports, diving is accepted in soccer and yet there is no desire outside of America to change the rules. Americans are some of the most passionate about changing the rules in soccer to be harsh on diving and to have instant replay in the sport.

The American idea of political rallies is very similar to the revival movements and itinerant preachers that helped to start the Great Awakenings in American history that became the driving forces in most of the major events in American history. When Americans go to political rallies, there are always speakers preaching to the converted and demanding for a revival of their spirit to act positively for their cause. Glenn Beck believes he is part of this long line of preachers, activists and politicians that created a movement. He frequently mentions George Whitefield. Whitefield was one of the key figures in the First Great Awakening.

What liberals and conservatives really need to fear is a true awakening on the other side that changes the overall make up and atmosphere of the nation politically and socially. In American history, these awakenings have resulted in a transformation in America and a passionate drive for a viewpoint that did not rest until it was victorious or decisively defeated. The election of Barack Obama came on the backs of the liberal awakening during the anti-war movement. However, I wonder if the Tea Party awakening will rival or surpass the liberal awakening during the Iraq war. That is going to be the critical question of this decade and beyond.

So far though, neither side has created an awakening that has drawn a near majority of Americans or enough to be a decisive force in the long term. We will have a national awakening when the far left or far right manages to unite with a powerful moderate faction like the GOP did before the Civil War and like the New England patriots did with the Virginia and southern commerce interests in the American Revolution.
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
14,848 posts, read 8,207,531 times
Reputation: 4590
I'm confused. Why must we compromise on our principles? Aren't we supposed to stick to what we believe in?

Secondly, the issue of abortion is simple. It was made legal in the entire country when the supreme court interpretated the 4th amendments "right to privacy" as applying through the 14th amendment to the issue of abortion.

Basically, the supreme court could declare that abortion laws were unconstitutional because the state was invading the privacy of individuals, but it would be silly for it to only apply after the first 12 weeks.

The only way for abortion laws to change, is either for the constitution itself to change. For the 14th amendment to be nullified(since it was illegally ratified to begin with). Or for the supreme court to change the ruling on abortion to where states again have the right to regulate it. But in that case, abortions will again be illegal or heavily regulated in most of the southern states.


Changing the constitution is basically impossible right now, with partisan bickering, it is more likely that this country dissolves than for it to pass an amendment to the constitution.

Despite the unconstitutionality of the passing of the 14th amendment, and it being a large issue in immigration reform. It would be political suicide for anyone to even mention repealing the 14th amendment in full.

This country has become so federal government centric, I don't think many people will accept the idea that individual states should be able to regulate themselves on an issue like abortion. California would make it legal, Texas would make it illegal, and then all hell would break loose.

Keep in mind, before Roe v. Wade, the individual states largely regulated abortion. One state could make it completely legal to the 3rd trimester, one could make it completely illegal, and another could make it legal in the first 12 weeks. Roe v. Wade, like other supreme court cases, destroyed any concept of real regulation on abortion, and took abortion completely out of the hands of the states.

If people can let go of the idea of centralization of government, we might be able to have a decent country again. But people in state X can't stay out of state Y or Z's business. It goes both ways, and no one seems to get it.

Chicago's liberal gun ban overturned by the supreme court based off the 14th amendment. Texas conservative abortion ban overturned by the supreme court based off the 14th amendment. Gay-marriage being overturned by the federal courts based off the 14th amendment.

Does no one else see the problem?

Last edited by Redshadowz; 09-17-2010 at 12:43 AM..
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