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Old 09-28-2010, 08:04 PM
 
19 posts, read 13,559 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha View Post
I was being facetious.

No, I do not want to be like a third world nation and relax our regulations so we are polluting the land and allowing businesses to take advantage of their employees.

I was taking a well deserved jab at 0bama, who wants free trade with the world, but at the same time he wants to penalize companies who expand by opening businesses overseas, while the car company he owns is doing exactly that.

At same time I was pointing out that we over regulate and over tax our manufacturing companies, so that going overseas is seen as the only way the can remain in business and compete in the world market.

We cannot say, on the one hand, that we want free trade with other countries, and on the other hand, penalize our own companies that engage in business overseas. Either we want open, free trade with other countries, or we don't. We cannot say we want free trade with the world, and then punish our own citizens who engage in it.
That sounds reasonable. I read an article that another person posted the link to about taxes. It still said that basically companies expense things here and take profits over there. I asked that person a probably naive question and have not gotten a response, as of yet, so I will ask you. Why can we not close those loopholes and just have an overseas company take their profits and expenses there and the same here. If those companies were claiming income and expenses incurred only here and paying those taxes, then could we not be able to afford lower tax rates here. When tax laws allow them to take deductions for income not declared, does that not support incentives to shipment of jobs out of the US?

I will say up front that that I may not understand a lot of things, but it seems somewhat perverse to me. There seems to be big money in those incentives or else you wouldn't have all these companies on the internet that want companies to hire them to tell them how to profitably outsource due to tax laws. Please feel free to explain to me how closing those loopholes would not make it more attractive to hire here? Do you think they would leave the US completely? If they did, might it not open up opportunities for business here? Don't you think they control too much of congress now? I don't know, what are your thoughts?
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
38,759 posts, read 22,552,064 times
Reputation: 14209
Quote:
Originally Posted by lnsutherland View Post
That sounds reasonable. I read an article that another person posted the link to about taxes. It still said that basically companies expense things here and take profits over there. I asked that person a probably naive question and have not gotten a response, as of yet, so I will ask you. Why can we not close those loopholes and just have an overseas company take their profits and expenses there and the same here. If those companies were claiming income and expenses incurred only here and paying those taxes, then could we not be able to afford lower tax rates here. When tax laws allow them to take deductions for income not declared, does that not support incentives to shipment of jobs out of the US?

I will say up front that that I may not understand a lot of things, but it seems somewhat perverse to me. There seems to be big money in those incentives or else you wouldn't have all these companies on the internet that want companies to hire them to tell them how to profitably outsource due to tax laws. Please feel free to explain to me how closing those loopholes would not make it more attractive to hire here? Do you think they would leave the US completely? If they did, might it not open up opportunities for business here? Don't you think they control too much of congress now? I don't know, what are your thoughts?
I'm not sure I understand your question, and I am not all that familiar with overseas businesses, but if I remember correctly, these US companies operating overseas are paying taxes to the countries they operate in. So the US would be essentially taxing them twice, once by the foreign government and then again by the US government. This would also allow the domestic competitors in those foreign countries to have a distinct advantage over them.

It's tough enough to find a US company that makes stereo equipment, TV, VCRs, CD players and even a leaf blower. The few US companies that are manufacturing products are trying to keep their heads above water by expanding overseas. I think if we start taxing them for their overseas ventures, that they would end up like our TV and VCR manufacturers.
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Old 09-28-2010, 08:53 PM
 
19 posts, read 13,559 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wapasha View Post
I'm not sure I understand your question, and I am not all that familiar with overseas businesses, but if I remember correctly, these US companies operating overseas are paying taxes to the countries they operate in. So the US would be essentially taxing them twice, once by the foreign government and then again by the US government. This would also allow the domestic competitors in those foreign countries to have a distinct advantage over them.

It's tough enough to find a US company that makes stereo equipment, TV, VCRs, CD players and even a leaf blower. The few US companies that are manufacturing products are trying to keep their heads above water by expanding overseas. I think if we start taxing them for their overseas ventures, that they would end up like our TV and VCR manufacturers.
I realize we don't make things here anymore and I guess that is my point. On page 12 near the end is a post by HappyTexan that has a link to an article I would like you to read, if you would. What I took away from it and from other things I have read, it seems to me it is hard stay competitive here when things are skewed against hiring here.

It is not taxing them for overseas ventures that I am asking about, it is that they deduct the expenses from over there here and don't have to declare the income here. It would be pretty sweet on our personal returns if we did not have to declare our income, but got to deduct everything. I am exaggerating because we as people can not get back what don't put in like it seems to me the corporations are getting away with.

I would like it if you would read that and then tell me what you think?
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,772,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lnsutherland View Post
I realize we don't make things here anymore and I guess that is my point. On page 12 near the end is a post by HappyTexan that has a link to an article I would like you to read, if you would. What I took away from it and from other things I have read, it seems to me it is hard stay competitive here when things are skewed against hiring here.

It is not taxing them for overseas ventures that I am asking about, it is that they deduct the expenses from over there here and don't have to declare the income here. It would be pretty sweet on our personal returns if we did not have to declare our income, but got to deduct everything. I am exaggerating because we as people can not get back what don't put in like it seems to me the corporations are getting away with.

I would like it if you would read that and then tell me what you think?
In simplest terms..it's because of our skewed tax laws. Our tax laws allow the companies to do that. Also how a company structures itself and how it moves it's money from one subsidiary to another affects it.

This bill would not have changed anything regarding the tax laws.
It's a complicated area and takes time to understand.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:15 AM
 
19 posts, read 13,559 times
Reputation: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyTexan View Post
In simplest terms..it's because of our skewed tax laws. Our tax laws allow the companies to do that. Also how a company structures itself and how it moves it's money from one subsidiary to another affects it.

This bill would not have changed anything regarding the tax laws.
It's a complicated area and takes time to understand.
Thanks for responding. I do think of things in very simple terms, no matter how complicated the actual maneuvering that takes place. I am including a few sentences from the article you directed me to.

Exxon, for example, managed to pocket record profits last year—along with sizable subsidies from the U.S. government—some $27 million of which it spent lobbying the U.S. government for subsidies and tax breaks. And if American companies are taxed at a higher rate than companies headquartered elsewhere that's because being based in the U.S. brings sizable benefits.

And in 2008 a Government Accountability Office (GAO) study found that between 1998 and 2005 two-thirds of companies operating in the U.S—including a quarter of the largest companies—didn't pay the U.S. government any net taxes at all.

First, I watched the actual floor debate and vote on the bill and if it wasn't that big of deal, why did all Republicans and few of the usual suspects Democrats vote it down? Republican, said it was procedural and hurt business. Democrat, after the vote, it will hurt business. So what if doesn't do much, why not pass it? What is wrong with a 2 year tax holiday for new hires as an incentive for jobs here for a change? If the other parts don't matter, why vote against it?

Lastly, I do watch Bloomberg, Cnbc and I hear over and over again, it is uncertainty, uncertainty, uncertainty. Poor, Poor business community, they had no sympathy when the equity in our property tanked along with our 401K. Now they are jocking to get their hands on social security to continue to gamble with our futures. Did you ever see the documentary The Smartest Men the Room (on Enron) or Casino Jack and the United States of Money? Look, I have nothing against business trying to make a good return, fairly. Subjectively, I think they are waiting for Republicans to get in and undo everything that has been done so far to reign them in.

Well, I know Republicans would not let it pass, but it seems pretty simple to me. You could have one bill that phased out all these special subsidies that create incentives to do operations out the US over X years, in X ways, to give them time to figure out how to comply (or get around it as best can be done). It would be certain, close the loopholes that have us paying for the subsidies while giving lip service to taxes needing to be cut (we might actually have some money for tax cuts if this changed), give them time to do it properly without major disruption, actually make them "do" business over there if they choose to so we treat them the same as anyone we buy from somewhere else, allow businesses over here to compete without having to subsidize the ones that don't, etc. etc.

Is that so complicated? Their returns may be complicated, their structures may be complicated, but the basic facts aren't to me. Like I said I am a simple person that looks at things as pretty much mostly fair or mostly unfair. I think things like Citizen's United made things so much worse, I think voting against campaign finance disclosure laws in response is a very telling vote.

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Last edited by lnsutherland; 09-29-2010 at 11:41 AM..
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