Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
 
Old 07-03-2007, 11:02 PM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,573,417 times
Reputation: 3020

Advertisements

No, Burdell, As a matter of fact, the folks I'm talking about were far from Falwell or Robertson. These were quite the opposite, new-thinking multiculturalist-types who just assume that ANYONE must be nicer and less to blame than us plain old Americans. Most of the ones I know are actually very socially-liberal Catholics. You probably know that they ("we", I have to admit), are also the biggest enablers of open borders here in California. Each week in our Catholic paper there is discussion on "immigration", but don't think I've EVER seen the word illegal. The feeling is that Christ would be helping the immigrants if he were here, but opposing views are not too well covered,
Incidentally, some of the 9-11 "apologists" I know have now changed their thinking and I've gently gotten them to admit that no, the 9-11 incident is really not excusable. So I'm making slow progress here
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-04-2007, 03:52 AM
 
Location: in the southwest
13,395 posts, read 45,067,432 times
Reputation: 13599
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
I simply don't even know exactly what patriotism is any more. I think we live in the greatest country on earth, with much to be proud of and much to be thankful for. It's just that I don't want to talk about it, fearing I may be seen as "divisive". Sure wouldn't want to annoy anyone who may be an al-Qaeda fan.
You don't want to be seen as "divisive," yet you post that you "sure wouldn't want to annoy anyone who may be an al-Qaeda fan"?
(I am reminded of the Colbert Report. "Why do you hate America?")

BTW
Does America have to be termed "the greatest country on earth" in order to be worthy of our affection? I never did get that.

I am very thankful indeed to live in America; I am proud of my country's many wonderful qualities. Just as I love my family with all its faults, I can love America with all her flaws. And I surely do not consider my family better than the one down the street, nor would I expect that family to love mine as much as I do.
Quote:
nevertheless I would point out that, if there's really no "evil" or "good"-- no "right" vs. "wrong"- - no culture, or group, or way of thinking, or religion, or lifestyle any better or any worse than any other, then "patriotism" seems to me to be an exceedingly difficult concept to wrap one's mind around. It's rather a moot point, it seems. Patriotism in relation to what?, one might ask...
We've been a melting pot for a long time.
We're all Americans in pursuit of happiness.
I agree that political correctness these days is a bit much.
Of course we must defend ourselves.
IMHO we do not need to export democracy.
I don't think patriotism has to be in relation to something, nor does it form only in the face of conflict. I think a true patriot sees his country as good, but does not rule out the fact that it could be better.
Now, a Nationalist might be a different story.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2007, 04:25 AM
 
Location: Oxford, England
13,026 posts, read 24,654,552 times
Reputation: 20165
I agree with Cil above that Patriotism does not mean being uncritical of your own nation. To me if you love your country you want the best for it as you would your children and sometimes it does mean being extremely critical , tough,and trying your best to redress any negative issues arising. I am proud to be French on many occasions and many times too also really ashamed ! I am quite happy to be critical about what I consider to be wrong with it , it does not make me a "traitor" to my country. I do find Nationalism really scary though, the "aren't we the best in the world, everybody else is wrong" mentality frightens me.
I have never been into flag waving, or this idea that there is a superior country or people. I find that kind of attitude really negative and can't see why people who feel like that.
Having lived all over the world I find that all countries have good things about them and good people too. Because our cultures and mores are different does not mean the "other" is inferior or somehow misguided. A Nation should be inclusive of all its people, if it isn't it becomes a divided country and social problems arise ( as in France at the moment for example).
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2007, 06:43 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,510,606 times
Reputation: 4014
Quote:
Originally Posted by YapCity View Post
No offense, seriously, but way too many of the boomers are "sell-outs". If you went back in time to the summer of 1967 and asked one of those "kids" if they'd let things get the way they are now.....C'mon.
Yes, on the first part. The allure of Volvo's and white picket fences claimed many who were just along for the ride in the 60's. Sex and drugs and rock 'n' roll. Basically, a problem of no guts on their part, particularly once the selfish-genie was let out of the bottle by Mr. Reagan.

But no on the second part, as 'the kids' from the Summer of Love are not the ones who wield power today. These are from the other side. The big-money, main-line types who preferred the Four Preps to the Beatles, who never smoked dope and never wore a headband or a tie-dye. You couldn't trust anyone who didn't smoke dope in those days, and hey, look around...you still can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YapCity View Post
I'm sorry, but the boomers should be leading the rest of America against the "Legion of Doom". Instead you've basically voted'em in, TWICE. Sure not all of you, but a lot of you. You're more concerned with the price of real estate, how much you can get that stock for, and where you're going to retire.
You assume that they actually were voted in. But either way there, it wasn't hordes of ex-hippies who made the difference. It was hordes of those who were a little slow on the take-up re the fact that they were being bought out by shills and snake-oil salemen to whom lies and deceits were proper tools for political manipulation. Many of those victims are shaking their heads today and wondering how they could have been so easily duped. But hey, it happens. Can't cry over spilt milk. The real question is where do we go from here, and the real problem is that where we need to go is so very much further away and so very much harder to get to than it was just six short years ago...
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2007, 06:51 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,510,606 times
Reputation: 4014
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal View Post
No, Burdell, As a matter of fact, the folks I'm talking about were far from Falwell or Robertson. These were quite the opposite, new-thinking multiculturalist-types who just assume that ANYONE must be nicer and less to blame than us plain old Americans.
I don't know. These are the kinds of words that I hear most often from those who seem to have a knee-jerk need to believe that Sacred America cannot have been at fault or to blame for any problem in any way. Not a particularly realistic viewpoint, all in all.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2007, 07:20 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,510,606 times
Reputation: 4014
Quote:
Originally Posted by cil View Post
Just as I love my family with all its faults, I can love America with all her flaws. And I surely do not consider my family better than the one down the street, nor would I expect that family to love mine as much as I do.
Very aptly put. Perhaps the neocons will need to coin the term 'multi-familyist' in order to denounce you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cil View Post
I agree that political correctness these days is a bit much.
I sometimes think that people take the case both for and against PC too far. At its core, it's merely a thought not to use in general conversation words that are known to cause offense to others when there are other words that will perfectly well suffice. At this level, it is little more than a rubric for an interconnected world over the changing nature of civility and simple good manners.

What I sometimes see folded into PC is the matter of cultural relativism. This is the reasonably simple notion that, humans being humans, some will emerge as dorks and some as geniuses within any culture or society, and that dorkiness is dorkiness and genius is genius no matter where they may occur. This seems to me a difficult proposition to argue against.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2007, 07:35 AM
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,352 posts, read 54,520,826 times
Reputation: 40819
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
I don't know. These are the kinds of words that I hear most often from those who seem to have a knee-jerk need to believe that Sacred America cannot have been at fault or to blame for any problem in any way. Not a particularly realistic viewpoint, all in all.
While I think we've overreached our bounds in attempting to control some happenings in various places around the world do you really think we've done anything to justify the murder of almost 3,000 innocents?

I think the root cause of 9/11 was the "My God is better than your God" fallacy carried to the extreme and that argument has been going on since long Columbus even thought about sailing west.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2007, 09:12 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,510,606 times
Reputation: 4014
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
While I think we've overreached our bounds in attempting to control some happenings in various places around the world do you really think we've done anything to justify the murder of almost 3,000 innocents?
At the risk of opening myself to charges of multi-culturalism, the decision to undertake the 9/11 attacks was not made in an American or even a Western mind or ethos. In those in which the decision was made, we have done all but endless numbers of things that made the attacks not simply justified, but long overdue. And the US knew of such thinking and the reasons for it from long before the day the attacks occurred and essentially followed a course of business as usual. We don't seem to be all that good at following any other course, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
I think the root cause of 9/11 was the "My God is better than your God" fallacy carried to the extreme and that argument has been going on since long Columbus even thought about sailing west.
Well if one were writing an essay, one would certainly want to include an analysis of religious motivations so as to head off criticism over having ignored them, but this is a geo-political uprising being fought, not against the US, but for control of first, Saudi Arabia, and second, the Muslim world as a whole. The US is essentially an inconsequent in this matter, save as in the fact that it serves as a primary supply depot and occasional useful tool for those whom the uprising wishes to be rid of. The root cause of the attack was a short-term desire to strike at and humiliate the US, and a long-term desire to lure the US, like the Soviets before us, into a protracted, expensive, and ultimately losing and debilitating land war on Muslim soil, and we have swallowed that bait -- hook, line, and sinker -- primarliy because, in a pique over trivial moral shortcomings, we allowed a bunch of extremely naive dogmatic types to take over the reigns of government.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2007, 09:32 AM
 
8,978 posts, read 16,573,417 times
Reputation: 3020
Default Convince Me !..

I don't know, Mooseketeer- - I'm trying to see your position, but having problems. You seem like a very nice guy, (and would probably would make an excellent next-door neighbor), but I can't help get the feeling that you are "pulling my leg". (At this point, I'll admit that I'm really a reasonable person, too, but have always enjoyed a spirited argument- I'll even take an unpopular positon, just to continue the debate)..
I've never been to the UK, but from what I hear, it seems to be seething with serious societal problems (the three recent airport terrorist incidents come to mind). From what I've read, England now has video cameras virtually everywhere in large urban areas, in the interest of security. You have, from what we here are told. already lost an ever-increasing number of your civil liberties, due to the neccessity of keeping trouble at bay. We here in the US will probably be in a similar situation in the very near future.
Is there nothing at all in this situation that you find disturbing? Do you have any philosophical disagreement with anyone, (except, of course, me)?
Once again, I ask these questions in the spirit of civil debate- no offense intended.
As for the other posts, I stand by what I said. "Patriotism", as I understand the word, necessitates a willingness, at some point, to make judgements or, if you will, to "take sides".-- Period. If you really believe that your country isn't "better" than other countries, "patriotism", it seems to me, would be a meaningless concept. By the way, how does one define "unpatriotic ?"
Taking no position is, in itself, a position. You cannot be "for" something, and "against" something, and be "neutral", all at the same time. Mooseketeer, you say you've traveled extensively- I have, too. Surely there must be some places you've been, that struck you as "better" places than others- I find it difficult to believe you've found all situations equally good. If you have honestly arrived at that conclusion, then I truly envy your innate good-heartedness, but must caution you that I think you're in for a rude awakening.
In the end, I cannot fathom how anyone could define "patriotism" without the idea that there are arbitrary value judgements involved. Nothing in this post says that you are REQUIRED to be patriotic; that's a different matter.
Patriotism that's completely value-free would be equivalent to someone saying "My father's an abusive alcoholic; Mom is a thief; My brother's in jail, and my kid just beat up the neighbor boy. Guess we're just a rough-and-ready group, but for all our faults, I'M STILL PROUD OF MY FAMILY."
Such sentiments (and I hear this sort of thing every now and then) are touching; perhaps it is an understandable human emotion. My only point here is that it pushes the limit of what it means to be "proud". To be proud of something, it seems to me that it would have to compare favorably (or exceed) something else. To be patriotic, you'd have to believe your country was at least as good others, and better than most. Patriotism, in the end, runs the risk of sounding "divisive", like any other value-judgement.
I feel I'm a partriotic American, (though I'm totally disgusted by our monumental blunders in Iraq). But I also must admit that I feel America is a "better" country than most. I see no great numbers of immigrants headed for North Korea, or Cuba, or Yemen, or Bulgaria. Not to say these are "bad" countries, but it seems like they are being judged so by the world's immigrants, who are "staying away in droves" from such places.
PS I might add that wherever I've traveled, the local people have uniformly treated me very well. The discussion here is not about the merits of people, but of societies and different "systems".
Thanks for listening...
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2007, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,407 posts, read 7,803,546 times
Reputation: 1198
Patriotism is a good solid mom, baseball and apple pie virtue. Every American should have a good dose of it. Ethnocentrism, or the belief one's own group is superior to all other groups or cultures, is where we continue to get ourselves in trouble. I think a lot of the world thinks "you guys have a good thing going that works for you across the pond, congratulations, why do you feel the need to stuff it down the rest of the world's throats all the time." I think the world gets a little tired of us sticking a "we're number one" finger up in their face every chance we get. Who is saying the 9/11 incident was a "good" thing? That is moronic. We had the world behind us that day. Remember, "Today we are all Americans." Flash forward - today most of the world looks down on us or openly hates us, including many in Western societies. As never before in our modern history. If we don't stop for a second and ask ourselves, "Why is this?" Then we are being equally simplistic. This is not a good thing for our country.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:
Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top