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Old 10-07-2010, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Arlington, VA
5,412 posts, read 4,239,885 times
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Okay, having a smoke detector in your home is a smart idea. However, if the federal government passed a law saying you must buy a smoke detector, it would be unconstitutional, because it's not in one of the enumerated powers, has nothing to do with interstate commerce, and thus, is reserved to the states. The states can pass a law requiring you to buy a smoke detector.

Do you see why mandating people to buy health insurance isn't constitutional?
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betamanlet View Post
Okay, having a smoke detector in your home is a smart idea. However, if the federal government passed a law saying you must buy a smoke detector, it would be unconstitutional, because it's not in one of the enumerated powers, has nothing to do with interstate commerce, and thus, is reserved to the states. The states can pass a law requiring you to buy a smoke detector.

Do you see why mandating people to buy health insurance isn't constitutional?
Single house fires have little the economic drain of the health insurance agents. Imagine if the fire department started charging 40,000 dollars every time they were going to a house fire. Some people would have to weigh the cost of losing the house, vs saving it.

So health insurance is different. You can't do without it. Sure, you say you can, but how many people aren't going to go to the emergency room if they break an arm.

You know who made emergency care mandatory? Ronald Reagan. Some conservative President, mandate emergency care for every citizen, and not pay for it. Insurance companies dropping people for the smallest reason when they took your money all along, etc.

Fire alarms aren't a good analogy here. We mandated airbags in all new cars. They mandated that you have to wear a safety belt in most states, and they were made a mandatory automobile feature in 1967.
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:31 PM
 
Location: NC
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1. That assumes smoke detectors are sufficiently analogous to health insurance.

2. What someone who might argue against that may claim is that government mandated insurance is constitutional under the interstate commerce clause, because health insurance has a substantial relationship to interstate commerce.
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Arlington, VA
5,412 posts, read 4,239,885 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Single house fires have little the economic drain of the health insurance agents. Imagine if the fire department started charging 40,000 dollars every time they were going to a house fire. Some people would have to weigh the cost of losing the house, vs saving it.

So health insurance is different. You can't do without it. Sure, you say you can, but how many people aren't going to go to the emergency room if they break an arm.

You know who made emergency care mandatory? Ronald Reagan. Some conservative President, mandate emergency care for every citizen, and not pay for it. Insurance companies dropping people for the smallest reason when they took your money all along, etc.

Fire alarms aren't a good analogy here. We mandated airbags in all new cars. They mandated that you have to wear a safety belt in most states, and they were made a mandatory automobile feature in 1967.

Cars have wheels and are interstate commerce.


Sealtbelt laws are ALL state laws. The federal government doesn't mandate that you wear seltbelts, but it arguably could because of cars being interstate commerce.

Your own example proves my point that there is FEDERALISM here. The STATES are the ones who can require you to do things, to purchase things, because thehy have police powers.

The states COULD require you to buy health insurance, but the federal government CANNOT because it's a power reserved to the states.
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Arlington, VA
5,412 posts, read 4,239,885 times
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Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
1. That assumes smoke detectors are sufficiently analogous to health insurance.

2. What someone who might argue against that may claim is that government mandated insurance is constitutional under the interstate commerce clause, because health insurance has a substantial relationship to interstate commerce.

How does health insurance have ANY relationship to interstate commerce let alone a substantial one? And FURTHER, how is NOT purchasing health insurance interstate commerce?
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Houston area, for now
948 posts, read 1,386,266 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Single house fires have little the economic drain of the health insurance agents. Imagine if the fire department started charging 40,000 dollars every time they were going to a house fire. Some people would have to weigh the cost of losing the house, vs saving it.
Fires have a huge connection. The analogy is very sound.

Burn Injuries Receiving Medical Treatment Per Year: 500,000

Fire and Burn Deaths Per Year: 4,000

Hospitalizations for Burn Injury Per Year: 40,000 total, including 25,000 admissions to hospitals with specialized burn centers

Place of Occurrence: 43% home, 17% street/highway, 8% occupational, 32% other

Uninsured/Government Pay: 31% of patients were uninsured, underinsured or private/self-pay; 25% were insured by government programs

Source: American Burn Association National Burn Repository (2005 report), which data base includes information on more than 126,000 acute burn admissions from 70 burn centers in the United States
American Burn Association


Burns are one of the most expensive catastrophic injuries to treat. For example, a burn of 30% of total body area can cost as much as $200,000 in initial hospitalization costs and for physicians fees. For extensive burns, there are additional significant costs which will include costs for repeat admission for reconstruction and for rehabilitation.

http://www.burnfree.com/p_pages.asp?page=burnfacts (broken link)
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:49 PM
 
Location: NC
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Originally Posted by betamanlet View Post
How does health insurance have ANY relationship to interstate commerce let alone a substantial one? And FURTHER, how is NOT purchasing health insurance interstate commerce?
Well, what someone might argue is that many people are injured while traveling through different states and as a result they avail themselves to hospital services of multiple states. They might further argue that such availment is interstate commerce and that commerce would be best facilitated by everyone having to carry federally mandated health insurance.
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Arlington, VA
5,412 posts, read 4,239,885 times
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Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
Well, what someone might argue is that many people are injured while traveling through different states and as a result they avail themselves to hospital services of multiple states. They might further argue that such availment is interstate commerce and that commerce would be best facilitated by everyone having to carry federally mandated health insurance.

Using that logic, that the federal government would have unlimited power because people travel. It wouldn't be limited to just mandating health insurance. The federal government could require you to wear nomex clothes because you could travel and get caught in a fire, and nomex would protect you from fire.

The federal government would have unlimited powers especially with airports, hotels, because it completely caters to people who are travelling... In that case, the federal government could require hotels to paint the walls pink.
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:58 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
Originally Posted by betamanlet View Post
Using that logic, that the federal government would have unlimited power because people travel. It wouldn't be limited to just mandating health insurance. The federal government could require you to wear nomex clothes because you could travel and get caught in a fire, and nomex would protect you from fire.

The federal government would have unlimited powers especially with airports, hotels, because it completely caters to people who are travelling... In that case, the federal government could require hotels to paint the walls pink.
That was part of how they forced hotels to desegregate in Heart of Atlanta Motel Inc. v the US. Though I am not sure if that is still current law. Part of there logic was that the hotel served primarily out of state clients and as a result was associated with interstate commerce.
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Arlington, VA
5,412 posts, read 4,239,885 times
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Originally Posted by Randomstudent View Post
That was how they forced hotels to desegregate in Heart of Atlanta Motel Inc. v the US. Though I am not sure if that is still current law.
people cross state lines and live in homes, sometimes they even have guests from other states. could the federal government mandate you paint your walls pink?
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