Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
First off...........BRAVO! You've said magic words "I am open to learn"
If more people started each day with "I am open to learn" rather than "My way is the only way" the world would be a better, more peaceful place.
I was raised in the RC church with all its hierarchy and one central figure so it's sometimes hard for me to understand some other religions which at times seem to have many leaders or no leadership at all. And I'll freely admit to being no great Biblical scholar, I view the Bible as written by man and that makes it subject to the entire range of human frailty. If you go back and read the comments of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell after 9/11 you'll see a perfect example of what troubles me about some fundamentalists. I'd also consider Robertson's statements about assassinating Chavez off-putting. I realize they later apologized for the 9/11 statements, I just think those comments were so contrary to what a Christian God should be that they should never have been said in the first place. In my eyes they did nothing but offer tacit approval of using violence against those perceived as not living the good life.
I have to ask why you limit this to the New Testament? I was under the impression the Old Testament was accepted as historical document prior to the birth of Christ?
And in reference to your subsequent post about hijacking the thread...No Problem!
We're still in the ballpark and still trying to learn a bit, a good thing
Thanks Burdell learning is what it's all about. Thanks for your input I need to do more research but as of now I have reason to believe that terrorism might be an intrinsic part fundamental Islam and cannot in any way be supported by true Christianty(this does not mean that I think all muslims are terrorists).
Psloldtimer I don't think you understand my question since you keep bringing up examples that have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.
Maybe when I have time I'll start a thread in the religon forum.
I guess I could have looked there first.
macmeal I noticed that you posted something on another thread about "fighting them over there" I don't have much time to respond now, my short answer is it's kind of like "If you build it they will come" The way I see it is lots of terrorists from all over are flocking to Iraq and Afghanistan to kill Americans if we leave they will still want to kill Americans. (Lots of potential threats to the U.S. are getting killed far away from us.)
Actually, posting something like that confirms just how little you truly know about Christianity.
I'm afraid all it really proves is that you have your own definition of Christianity, which puts you right in the same spot as all those others who have their own definition.
What I know about Christianity is that (1) it is probably more fragmented than Islam, (2) Christians have been killing others in the name of Christianity for hundreds of years (see the Inquisition, or as someone else mentioned, Ireland), and (3) no one can prove whether they are right or anyone else is wrong.
Just to get past the hype, I'd like to reiterate.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha8207
...if you can show me Jesus and Paul teaching mass murder, child rape, and encouraging people to follow false Christs, then we'll have something to discuss.
Psloldtimer I don't think you understand my question since you keep bringing up examples that have nothing to do with the teachings of Jesus.
Well, your correct about bringing it up in the religion forum, but what do the teachings of Jesus have to do with the various Christian denominations and what they believe, or the beliefs of people who have always been considered Christians? It's all a matter of interpretation, and the point I have been trying to make is that your interpretation of what makes a Christian is no more valid that anyone else's.
oldtimer is right. Zealots throughout history have caused suffering and death in the name of their religion. Christians don't get a free pass. From my understanding of Christianity, thou shalt not kill is pretty straightforward, no asterisks anywhere. But we need to bend that or how could we have capital punishment and armies, etc. So it then opens itself up to interpretation a bit. That allows radical Christians to go overboard on occasion.
From my rudimentary understanding of Islam, killing is justified in self defense or if Islam itself is coming under attack. So it seems that our army is in a no win situation over there, because they are fanning the flames of the call to arms in the name of defense of Islam. Ugly situation.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,326 posts, read 54,344,425 times
Reputation: 40726
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
oldtimer is right. Zealots throughout history have caused suffering and death in the name of their religion. Christians don't get a free pass. From my understanding of Christianity, thou shalt not kill is pretty straightforward, no asterisks anywhere. But we need to bend that or how could we have capital punishment and armies, etc. So it then opens itself up to interpretation a bit.
That's really one of the things that I had in mind starting this thread: Is there any more reason to believe most Muslims take the Koran literally than most Christians take the Bible? I don't believe there is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
That allows radical Christians to go overboard on occasion.
And I'm sure enough digging through history would allow that to be also said about radical Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, ......................................et al
The bottom line for me is I believe many religions have more similarity than difference and the troubles caused by small differences never cease to amaze me
Rousing good points, everyone. Allow me to stick my neck out here. The argument is made that Christians have been guilty of atrocities. True enough- no argument can be made there. While I think the violence and hatreds practiced by Christians took a different form than what we see from today's Islamists, there's no denying "our" guilt (I am Catholic).The Inquisition- etc. Even our American violence against the early-day Mormons...and much more.
The difference, though, is that the Christian west has by-and-large evolved beyond such religiously-fueled violence some time ago. Yes, this was relatively recent, and yes, imperfect. But I'd say that few, if any, present-day Christian "wackos" seriously operate under the belief that "Christ Wants Me To Kill You !". The few who do this are regarded, in their own societies, as real nut-cases, and are dealt with as such. We can't really call Hitler a Christian- he was a psychopath, not a religious kook. The violence in Ireland usually doesn't involve either side invoking Christ's backing of their cause. They may be terrorists who are Christians, but aren't really "Christan Terrorists".
Part of the difference is that most western societies are secular. Very few even ALLOW religion to enter into the arena of public life (remember how we beat up on Bush for using the word "evil"?) Muslim societies, on the other hand, none of which are democratic, are either theocracies, or very weak secular dictatorships barely in control of the angry, divided masses. Religion in that area is simply part-and-parcel of government, or is kept from being so, only at gunpoint.
It's very hard to make a true comparison. The criticism could be made that we should be more understanding, given our own history of intolerance. For the most part, "we" ARE. We have a "new" society now which goes to great lengths to understand those who are very different. However, I think its incumbent upon us to be aware of the fact that understanding and reaching out doesn't require that we acquiece to the demands of those who openly and without reservation, have made it their goal in life to kill us.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,326 posts, read 54,344,425 times
Reputation: 40726
Quote:
Originally Posted by macmeal
The difference, though, is that the Christian west has by-and-large evolved beyond such religiously-fueled violence some time ago. Yes, this was relatively recent, and yes, imperfect. But I'd say that few, if any, present-day Christian "wackos" seriously operate under the belief that "Christ Wants Me To Kill You !". .
That's a great point! It's all very complex and the whole situation seems to make it impossible to separate religion and politics.
I'll never argue that terrorists of any form must be stopped, to me that's a given. I agree that the Christian west has evolved beyond much of its violence but in the absence of violence should we be condemning all of Islam or any other religion for evolving at a different rate?
macmeal you bring up some good points -I would take issue with your assertion however that we are entirely a secular society. While that is true on paper, in reality we have a long way to go to be free of the influence of religion in our government. Or why would gay marriage even be a topic of debate? This is especially true of this administration. Who can forget this Bush exchange ?
Abu Mazen, Palestinian Prime Minister, and Nabil Shaath, his Foreign Minister, describe their first meeting with President Bush in June 2003.
Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
Abu Mazen was at the same meeting and recounts how President Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state." BBC - Press Office - George Bush on Elusive Peace
This is a nice article from religious scholars discussing religious influence on government and history. Some excerpts.
Since the beginning of time, people have killed others in the name of God to defend or advance their religious convictions. What was true during the Crusades, the Protestant Reformation and World War II is still making headlines today as suicide bombers die in the name of their God in Iraq, the Gaza Strip and other lands around the globe.
“Religious beliefs are the most strongly held beliefs in our society,” said Dr. G. Howard Miller, associate professor of history and an expert in Christianity at The University of Texas at Austin. “They are absolutes, and absolutes are worth dying for.”
“Many of the conflicts we see throughout the world are a revolt against 300 years of domination by Western civilization,” said Miller. “Some extremist religious groups are trying to expel the outside influences, primarily from the West, from their culture.”
The fact that extremist religious factions feed on these conflicts and reformulate them according to religious absolutes is a key point, according to scholars in the university’s Religious Studies Program.
“Osama bin Laden doesn’t speak for all Muslims any more than Pat Robertson speaks for all Christians,” says Dr. Martha Newman, director of the Religious Studies Program. “The role of religious studies is to help students understand the diversity within religions and to promote an understanding of how religion functions as part of human identity, history and culture.”
“One can’t really discuss core beliefs of world religions because adherents of those religions have been fighting among themselves for centuries as to what constitutes the core beliefs,” says Dr. Kamran Aghaie, associate professor of Middle Eastern history and an expert in Islamic religion. “For instance, while many people will point to the Five Pillars of Faith as core Muslim beliefs, in reality many Muslims do not practice them regularly.”
“The United States is becoming unique among industrialized nations in the importance its society places on religion,” Miller continued. “It’s more important today that it has been in many, many years.”“Many of the conflicts we see today are really battles over the role of religion in the public sphere,” said Aghaie. “While the secular state claims the right to dominate the public sphere, religious groups challenge the state’s right to do so. In most Muslim countries, the ruling regimes are secular and are explicitly modeled on western systems of government. In these countries there are diverse factions that support a secular state standing against those who support some sort of theologically or religiously oriented state in which religion is the source of government authority and law.
“Most of these secular, westernized regimes are headed by repressive dictators who do not tolerate free speech or the free practice of religion,” he added. “Extremist factions that revolt and invoke jihad, which is normally defined as a struggle for a divine or noble cause, believe they are just defending their rights.”
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,326 posts, read 54,344,425 times
Reputation: 40726
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4
Nabil Shaath says: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"
A mission from God? Who knew there was a third Blues Brother?
Sorry couldn't resist.
If that story has ever been corroborated it's actually pretty scary.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Prickly Situation, Indeed
