Why does the US always have to have an enemy? (Mexicans, activist)

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by macmeal

Mooseketeer,I enjoyed your post. Again, speaking as an American Rustic (pardon me- SHOOOOH ! Got to get those chickens off my keyboard- there! That's better)- it almost sounds like you are making some of my own assertations, albeit from a different point of view. What you said, it seems to me (and correct me if I'm wrong) could be interpreted to mean, if I may so state, that "We Europeans were never racists in the past, for the simple reason we had no huge number of minorities at home to be racist TOWARD. We always assumed you Yanks were the big racists, because of your problems in the States. Now that WE have significant "visible minorities" as well, we're finding out that co-existence is a little trickier than it appeared from a distance. Pardon us, Yanks, for rushing to judgement" Similar in vein to the mock apology offered by US Military Officers in Iraq toward Saddam Hussein, in which they apologized for concluding that he was a brutal tyrant, now that we AMERICANS are the new "brutal" administrators of Iraq.
SERIOUSLY, though your statements about the "radicalization" of some muslims who had been heretofore moderate is interesting. I believe what we are seeing on these forums is what may be called a similar "radicalization" of christian fundamentalists, driven into a corner by forces they see as beyond their control. Remember, we Yanks are not ALL as smart and sophisticated as I am
Your post gave me much to think about...

I never assumed Americans were any more racist than the French. Slavery is an issue which used to affect all developed countries , it is just that the US took a lot longer to acknowledge legal discrimination was unacceptable. I think I was just trying to say that the very existence of the US is based on immigration and immigration has only occurred in France and other European nations for only the last 40ish years or so in a big way. Also they are much smaller countries so an immigrant population is a lot more"visible". I actually think attitudes have changed vastly towards immigrants in the last 20 years and there is a lot less racism and suspicion about "the other" in France. Most of the immigrant population is now well integrated and represented well in the media, the arts and even industry, inter-racial marriages are now very common and no longer frowned upon but yes there is a very small and very vocal minority who feels put upon and not integrated. A lot of it is due to economic factors . It seems as anywhere around the Western world that poverty and feeling as if you don't belong is the catalyst for a lot of extreme behaviour , White,Arab, Black, Hispanic, whatever you race. To feel respect towards others one must have respect in oneself and it can be difficult when you feel you have no stake in the society you live in and then problems begin. As I said I have a lot of Arab friends and integration whilst retaining cultural heritage is possible. It just takes some common sense and the political will not to exclude anyone.
Living in Oxford, I have seen diversity in action ( just about every nation, language , culture and religion is represented here) and it can and does work. Racism and prejudice are born out of fear and ignorance and I have never understood how anybody could ever judge someone because of their colour, race, creed , or sexuality. We all judge other people one way or another but the criteria really ought to be personality and action and done on an individual basis. It's not healthy for any nation to have institutionalised racism, it only inflames what is an already delicate situation. France is decried in America for being in economic ruins due to its generous social net ( and yes everybody who can afford it pays higher taxes, in my opinion that is called society and I am proud and happy to pay my taxes if it goes to people who are not as well-off and lucky as I am ) and it's not true. Like America it has its problems but considering that it is compared to the US tiny, and has that social net of benefits for all, universal ( and excellent) healthcare, it is doing pretty darn good.

Oh and by the way I hardly think you a "Rustic" though in my book that might be a compliment anyway ( my Great-Grand-Mother had a big farm and I thought the world of her, though the chickens did have nasty habit of pecking my feet, really hard as a little girl , OUCH ! I actually believe most of our problems come from too fast an industrialisation to the detriment of a sustainable and "rustic" lifestyle.

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

I never assumed Americans were any more racist than the French. Slavery is an issue which used to affect all developed countries , it is just that the US took a lot longer to acknowledge legal discrimination was unacceptable. I think I was just trying to say that the very existence of the US is based on immigration and immigration has only occurred in France and other European nations for only the last 40ish years or so in a big way. Also they are much smaller countries so an immigrant population is a lot more"visible". I actually think attitudes have changed vastly towards immigrants in the last 20 years and there is a lot less racism and suspicion about "the other" in France. Most of the immigrant population is now well integrated and represented well in the media, the arts and even industry, inter-racial marriages are now very common and no longer frowned upon but yes there is a very small and very vocal minority who feels put upon and not integrated. A lot of it is due to economic factors . It seems as anywhere around the Western world that poverty and feeling as if you don't belong is the catalyst for a lot of extreme behaviour , White,Arab, Black, Hispanic, whatever you race. To feel respect towards others one must have respect in oneself and it can be difficult when you feel you have no stake in the society you live in and then problems begin. As I said I have a lot of Arab friends and integration whilst retaining cultural heritage is possible. It just takes some common sense and the political will not to exclude anyone.
Living in Oxford, I have seen diversity in action ( just about every nation, language , culture and religion is represented here) and it can and does work. Racism and prejudice are born out of fear and ignorance and I have never understood how anybody could ever judge someone because of their colour, race, creed , or sexuality. We all judge other people one way or another but the criteria really ought to be personality and action and done on an individual basis. It's not healthy for any nation to have institutionalised racism, it only inflames what is an already delicate situation. France is decried in America for being in economic ruins due to its generous social net ( and yes everybody who can afford it pays higher taxes, in my opinion that is called society and I am proud and happy to pay my taxes if it goes to people who are not as well-off and lucky as I am ) and it's not true. Like America it has its problems but considering that it is compared to the US tiny, and has that social net of benefits for all, universal ( and excellent) healthcare, it is doing pretty darn good.

Oh and by the way I hardly think you a "Rustic" though in my book that might be a compliment anyway ( my Great-Grand-Mother had a big farm and I thought the world of her, though the chickens did have nasty habit of pecking my feet, really hard as a little girl , OUCH ! I actually believe most of our problems come from too fast an industrialisation to the detriment of a sustainable and "rustic" lifestyle.

Interesting and sensitive post, Mooseketeer. I feel closer to understanding your position. And before I go on, let me say that if the majority of us lived and felt as you seem to, we'd all be far better off.
In my "crustiness' however, I still have an inner voice warning me that the situation may have a little darker aspect than you seem to see. I'll agree with you that no one should be judged by race or color; that's pretty much a given. "Religion", however is a gray area. This is exactly the situation we're seeing today. It may be wrong to judge all muslims by the actions of a few. But I can't deny the temptation to do so. It would be exceedingly difficult to admit that, despite the gruesome history of the Ku Klux Klan, there might be a few members who are really "nice guys", and just go to the meetings for the comraderie. Like it or not, the KKK is going to be held in an unfavorable light, because of its organizational goals. Any "good guys" in its membership have not succeeded in reversing its poor image.
Similarly, the moderate muslim population, up to this point, has done an exceedingly poor job in reaching out the the general public with a message of friendship and solidarity, and another poor job in distancing itself from the "bad guys" in its midst. I, and many other well-meaning westerners, would be very interested in any convincing message of this sort. In its abscence, however, we are forced to only two possible conclusions: Either the moderate muslim community is not being honest, and really does, in fact, espouse and condone violence against us in the West; OR, the moderate muslim community really are decent, peace-loving people who have been so intimidated by their own radicals, that they dare not speak out. Neither option, I'm sure you will agree, is particularly likely to win them many friends and supporters. Muslims, until recent years, were almost unknown to most Americans) except those in the Detroit/Toledo area), and those of us of good will and open mind are still looking for answers. We really are nice people, given half a chance.
Once again, your posts are appreciated. Your take on the health-care crisis is a point well-taken. We Americans have always been an extremely cantankerous lot when it comes to who governs us. We have a sort of in-bred fear of trusting our kidneys, livers, and hearts to the same people who collect our taxes and secure our borders. It is very difficult for us to comfortably "trust" our government. I agree, a competent, well-run health care system would be a godsend. So would a fair tax code, an honest immigration policy, and efficient public schools. Perhaps some day it will happen.
Best regards to you...

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by JD.

Interesting point, you think what is happening in California will eventually happen here? Could very well be, but I feel that wether good or bad (No, I do not walk lock step with the Republican party as you all assume, and think both parties are dirty rats, El Presidente being the dirtiest one), our state has become even more Republican, almost to the point of being radical (I don't like using that word to describe my beloved state but we'll go with it). Tattoos were until very recently banned (they still are in some parts), abortion can not be funded by the government, we passed the strictest immigration law in the country (which I am proud of), and in 2006 while the rest of the country saw Democratic wins, Oklahoma's House and Senate switched to Republican majorities for the first time in a LONG time. We have 1920's style liquor laws, there is no beer here sold over 3% alcohol, no sales on Sundays, no chilled beer at gas stations, no happy hour, and nearly half the counties are completely dry. This actually forced several beer companies out of the state. Anyways, my Okie Pride (the part of me that spreads Okie knowledge to others without their asking) is getting the best of me. The point I'm trying to make is in my opinion the country is heading two seperate ways. We all know that when you pull something two seperate directions it is bound to split. Your posts are definatley thought provoking macmeal, and since we have no Californians within a 150 miles radius (gotta be some in Amarillo), it is enlightening to read your posts . I'm just wondering if California is really as strange a place as everyone makes it out to be.

I don't know if you are bragging, JD, about having "no Californians" nearby, but we certainly have our share of "Okies". Most of these now are "CIO's" (that is "California Improved Okies"), the descendants of the Okies who arrived in Bakersfield in the 1930's (you might call them the "okie diaspora"). They have had a profound effect on California's history. There are still parts of town, and rural areas in the San Joaquin Valley that are quite "Okie" in character. The entire southwest fringe of the Valley is practically a solid forest of oil wells, interspersed with enormous cotton fields- it's all quite "Okie"...
As you said, there are profound differences between modern-day California and the Midwest. Couldn't begin to cover all these in this post. Oddly enough, the "okies" here once occupied a social position somewhat equivalent to today's illegal aliens- unwanted, living in squalid camps, doing the work others would not, seemingly unwilling to "act like Californians". At one time there were even makeshift "border stations" at the Colorado River where fed-up locals attempted to stop the invasion of "Okies"-- it didn't work, though. Fascinating subject.....

[giantc]

Listen up, all of you spoiled, dope-smoking, communist-loving, know-it-all, anti-america, ungrateful people. I am tired of all the bashing my country has to endure for doing its duty as the world leader. Let's start with ungrateful foreigners from that sorry piece of land called Europe. Remember WWII? It was America who liberated you from Hitler. If it weren't for us, you would have become little German towns and now work like slaves to support Germany. You freedom to sit on your arses and whine and complain about us is possible because America got involved and did what today's communist-loving freaks would call world policing. So why don't show some gratitude and appreciation?

Now for those spoiled, misguided Americans, America is the world leader. The respect this great country enjoys is the result of our commitment to world stability and democracy. We have always answered the call whenever and wherever there was trouble. The list of countries that have benefited from American presence on their soil are long indeed. Japan, South Korea, Germany, England, Singapore, Italy and many more are stronger and wealthier today because the US have helped them either through military protection or economic assistance.

The dope-smoking crowd here spews all kind theories from oil grabbing to war-for-profit craziness. Let's just pretend for moment that you anti-america morons are right. We went to the Middle East for oil. What's wrong with that? The government is doing what it is supposed to do -- protecting the interest of Americans. Why do think gas is so much cheaper in the US than in some other countries? If anything, you should very grateful for what our government is doing for us.

Now as for war-for-profit theory, we need it. How do you think America got to be where we are today? It's because we have greatest military on earth. Make no mistake, in this crazy world, a strong military is absolutely essential to our continuing leadership.

Americans, be proud of your coutry. Foreigners, be grateful for what America has done for you.

[JD.]

Originally Posted by macmeal

I don't know if you are bragging, JD, about having "no Californians" nearby, but we certainly have our share of "Okies". Most of these now are "CIO's" (that is "California Improved Okies"), the descendants of the Okies who arrived in Bakersfield in the 1930's (you might call them the "okie diaspora"). They have had a profound effect on California's history. There are still parts of town, and rural areas in the San Joaquin Valley that are quite "Okie" in character. The entire southwest fringe of the Valley is practically a solid forest of oil wells, interspersed with enormous cotton fields- it's all quite "Okie"...
As you said, there are profound differences between modern-day California and the Midwest. Couldn't begin to cover all these in this post. Oddly enough, the "okies" here once occupied a social position somewhat equivalent to today's illegal aliens- unwanted, living in squalid camps, doing the work others would not, seemingly unwilling to "act like Californians". At one time there were even makeshift "border stations" at the Colorado River where fed-up locals attempted to stop the invasion of "Okies"-- it didn't work, though. Fascinating subject.....

Very interesting, I read the Grapes of Wrath (I think it's a requirement to live here, that and seeing Oklahoma! ), so I know what you're talking about. Definatley some parallels between ex-patriot Oklahomans and illegal aliens of today. I wasn't bragging about not having any Californians, it's just we don't have any around here. I do know people though who have noticed an influx of Californians in Tulsa or Wichita, all trying to escape 'the city life' only to complain that we're so backwards and should do things like it is back in 'Cali', kind of defeats the purpose in the first place . But anyways, it's always interesting to get another perspective.

In regards to nationalized healthcare, I think (correct me if I'm wrong), that we feel an independance from the government and still pride ourselves on being 'self-reliant'. I know many people who would refuse nationalized healthcare just because they would rather take care of themselves. I for one, don't want Washington D.C. telling me what I need to do in regards to anything. I feel the federal government should be used for purposes only of national defense. States should decide exactly what laws represent their constiuents best. If Oklahoma wants to ban all abortions, fine. If California wants to legalize all forms of abortion, so be it. I think it would fix a lot of problems. We are a capitalistic society, so healthcare should be in the free market. I don't want to end up like Canada where people live and die on a waiting list to get a routine surgery. I also don't feel like paying 13.5% tax out of my paycheck for everyone's healthcare. Mooseketeer may feel the responsibility to help out those unfortunate, but here's a tip: get a job and provide for your own health care. Nothing perpetuates laziness like having the feds hand you everything on a silver platter. Next thing you know they'll not only have food stamps, but electronic stamps, so if you can't afford to buy the latest X-BOX 360 or iPhone, the government will help out those less fortunate.

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by giantc

Listen up, all of you spoiled, dope-smoking, communist-loving, know-it-all, anti-america, ungrateful people. I am tired of all the bashing my country has to endure for doing its duty as the world leader. Let's start with ungrateful foreigners from that sorry piece of land called Europe. Remember WWII? It was America who liberated you from Hitler. If it weren't for us, you would have become little German towns and now work like slaves to support Germany. You freedom to sit on your arses and whine and complain about us is possible because America got involved and did what today's communist-loving freaks would call world policing. So why don't show some gratitude and appreciation?

Now for those spoiled, misguided Americans, America is the world leader. The respect this great country enjoys is the result of our commitment to world stability and democracy. We have always answered the call whenever and wherever there was trouble. The list of countries that have benefited from American presence on their soil are long indeed. Japan, South Korea, Germany, England, Singapore, Italy and many more are stronger and wealthier today because the US have helped them either through military protection or economic assistance.

The dope-smoking crowd here spews all kind theories from oil grabbing to war-for-profit craziness. Let's just pretend for moment that you anti-america morons are right. We went to the Middle East for oil. What's wrong with that? The government is doing what it is supposed to do -- protecting the interest of Americans. Why do think gas is so much cheaper in the US than in some other countries? If anything, you should very grateful for what our government is doing for us.

Now as for war-for-profit theory, we need it. How do you think America got to be where we are today? It's because we have greatest military on earth. Make no mistake, in this crazy world, a strong military is absolutely essential to our continuing leadership.

Americans, be proud of your coutry. Foreigners, be grateful for what America has done for you.

A little rough in the delivery there, GiantC- but I'm going to stick my neck out and say that, though you'll no doubt get a lot of flack, and may not be the world's greatest diplomat, I respect your post. You are the guy I've been alluding to, finding himself blamed for all the many ills around the globe, and fed up with the one-sided attacks. You have every right to feel as you do. Certainly we allow every other nation on earth to express it OWN frustrations, and you deserve the same courtesy. Try to be understanding, try to be broad-minded (I know it's not always easy), but do not back down from your principles......

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by JD.

Very interesting, I read the Grapes of Wrath (I think it's a requirement to live here, that and seeing Oklahoma! ), so I know what you're talking about. Definatley some parallels between ex-patriot Oklahomans and illegal aliens of today. I wasn't bragging about not having any Californians, it's just we don't have any around here. I do know people though who have noticed an influx of Californians in Tulsa or Wichita, all trying to escape 'the city life' only to complain that we're so backwards and should do things like it is back in 'Cali', kind of defeats the purpose in the first place . But anyways, it's always interesting to get another perspective.

In regards to nationalized healthcare, I think (correct me if I'm wrong), that we feel an independance from the government and still pride ourselves on being 'self-reliant'. I know many people who would refuse nationalized healthcare just because they would rather take care of themselves. I for one, don't want Washington D.C. telling me what I need to do in regards to anything. I feel the federal government should be used for purposes only of national defense. States should decide exactly what laws represent their constiuents best. If Oklahoma wants to ban all abortions, fine. If California wants to legalize all forms of abortion, so be it. I think it would fix a lot of problems. We are a capitalistic society, so healthcare should be in the free market. I don't want to end up like Canada where people live and die on a waiting list to get a routine surgery. I also don't feel like paying 13.5% tax out of my paycheck for everyone's healthcare. Mooseketeer may feel the responsibility to help out those unfortunate, but here's a tip: get a job and provide for your own health care. Nothing perpetuates laziness like having the feds hand you everything on a silver platter. Next thing you know they'll not only have food stamps, but electronic stamps, so if you can't afford to buy the latest X-BOX 360 or iPhone, the government will help out those less fortunate.

First , French people of my grand-parents generation ARE very grateful for American intervention though entering the war at the beginning rather than the middle might have been a tad more useful and saved millions of lives.
Second ,I am not a communist, have never smoked dope ( or taken any other type of drugs for that matter) and have as much right to express myself as you.
Third gratefulness for past deeds does not mean acquiescence on everything. Because you intervened in WW2 does not mean I have to agree with your foreign policies.
Fourth ,a lot of people are unable to work, due to illness or simply being unable to find a job. this does not mean they should be left to fend for themselves with no access to healthcare.
Fifth, a lot of people in America are refused healthcare because of previous medical conditions. You obviously believe in the survival of the fittest. I don't. I believe
as human beings we have a duty of care and compassion to others. I am not an animal. Healthcare is not a luxury, it is a basic human right.

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

First , French people of my grand-parents generation ARE very grateful for American intervention though entering the war at the beginning rather than the middle might have been a tad more useful and saved millions of lives.
Second ,I am not a communist, have never smoked dope ( or taken any other type of drugs for that matter) and have as much right to express myself as you.
Third gratefulness for past deeds does not mean acquiescence on everything. Because you intervened in WW2 does not mean I have to agree with your foreign policies.
Fourth ,a lot of people are unable to work, due to illness or simply being unable to find a job. this does not mean they should be left to fend for themselves with no access to healthcare.
Fifth, a lot of people in America are refused healthcare because of previous medical conditions. You obviously believe in the survival of the fittest. I don't. I believe
as human beings we have a duty of care and compassion to others. I am not an animal. Healthcare is not a luxury, it is a basic human right.

Rousing post, Mooseketeer. Please don't get "testy". You are encountering one of our most cherished American values, "contrariness". The quintessential American hero (OUR hero) is ALWAYS argumentative, even when his instinct is to be agreeable. Our whole society was built by frontiersman who, when someone moved in 30 miles down the valley, would pack up an leave, because "the neighborhood's getting crowded". In fact, when someone says "have a nice day !" our reflexive response is likely to be, "Look, Buddy, don't tell ME what to do !".
We Americans are a culture in which co-operation has long been regarded as "sissy". Your patience and understanding are appreciated. Keep those posts coming. We Americans have to climb on a stepladder to reach an agreement, and we're not really supposed to even LIKE each other too much- please be patient.

[Mooseketeer]

Originally Posted by macmeal

Rousing post, Mooseketeer. Please don't get "testy". You are encountering one of our most cherished American values, "contrariness". The quintessential American hero (OUR hero) is ALWAYS argumentative, even when his instinct is to be agreeable. Our whole society was built by frontiersman who, when someone moved in 30 miles down the valley, would pack up an leave, because "the neighborhood's getting crowded". In fact, when someone says "have a nice day !" our reflexive response is likely to be, "Look, Buddy, don't tell ME what to do !".
We Americans are a culture in which co-operation has long been regarded as "sissy". Your patience and understanding are appreciated. Keep those posts coming. We Americans have to climb on a stepladder to reach an agreement, and we're not really supposed to even LIKE each other too much- please be patient.

You are obviously a far worthier human being and far more tolerant than myself MacMeal, I thought the frontier days were over ( and look what that fine mentality did to the Native Americans !) and that the Wild West had been won a long time ago and needed no more bloodshed. My paternal grand-father was American so I am quarter American but this kind of jingoist rubbish still amazes me.

Some posters attitude to other human beings and the world at large is shocking and this is how and why wars are started and fought. It really is no wonder that a lot of people do hate Americans and see them as "the evil empire" as this approach is so incredibly aggressive and selfish, it beggars belief.

I wouldn't mind if these people were survivalists with no contact with society and a self sustainable lifestyle involving no human dependency whatsoever at all but I suspect most are not. How can anyone respect anybody who believes everything revolves around them and has no compassion and respect for others? The mind quite frankly boggles...

I have to give it to you MacMeal though, you must be able to see the best in everyone ! All I can see is selfishness, hatred and bigotry. And to that I personally have tolerance at all.

[macmeal]

Originally Posted by Mooseketeer

You are obviously a far worthier human being and far more tolerant than myself MacMeal, I thought the frontier days were over ( and look what that fine mentality did to the Native Americans !) and that the Wild West had been won a long time ago and needed no more bloodshed. My paternal grand-father was American so I am quarter American but this kind of jingoist rubbish still amazes me.

Some posters attitude to other human beings and the world at large is shocking and this is how and why wars are started and fought. It really is no wonder that a lot of people do hate Americans and see them as "the evil empire" as this approach is so incredibly aggressive and selfish, it beggars belief.

I wouldn't mind if these people were survivalists with no contact with society and a self sustainable lifestyle involving no human dependency whatsoever at all but I suspect most are not. How can anyone respect anybody who believes everything revolves around them and has no compassion and respect for others? The mind quite frankly boggles...

I have to give it to you MacMeal though, you must be able to see the best in everyone ! All I can see is selfishness, hatred and bigotry. And to that I personally have tolerance at all.

Fine points! I hope you realize much of my "rant" was in jest. Your menton of America's treatment of its original inhabitants was well-founded. It may interest you to know, though, that my spouse of 37 years (who prefers to call herself an "American Indian") does occasionally manage to take some measure of revenge...
Please realize that my intentions are noble, though my humor doesn't always translate. Once again, if there were mor folks who thought and acted like you, we'd all be better off....
Best to you...