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My primary reason I couldn't support Obama was of course his desire to escalate the war in Afghanistan under the notion of a good war or a right war. On one hand, I understand why Obama aimed for Afghanistan, as politically the Democrats are traditionally seen as weak on war issues and by him making a beeline for this, it stole the thunder out of the rights war on terror message.
While Obama may have actually believed in his mind that this was the right thing to do, knowing how he had voted in the past on war related issues, it bugged me even more. As I realize many will disagree with me but Obama used Afghanistan as a political tool to remove the weak on terror argument from the dialog. Using people and in this case soldiers as a vehicle to help get elected just seems rather vile to me. I hope in the end I'm proven wrong and we get out of that hell hole under his watch but from what I'm reading about the build up of bases and military infrastructure, I have serious doubts.
The Military's plan is the same as Vietnam, Idon't think any of the Politicians have a clue. I think we have embraced the proverbial Tar Baby
My primary reason I couldn't support Obama was of course his desire to escalate the war in Afghanistan under the notion of a good war or a right war. On one hand, I understand why Obama aimed for Afghanistan, as politically the Democrats are traditionally seen as weak on war issues and by him making a beeline for this, it stole the thunder out of the rights war on terror message.
While Obama may have actually believed in his mind that this was the right thing to do, knowing how he had voted in the past on war related issues, it bugged me even more. As I realize many will disagree with me but Obama used Afghanistan as a political tool to remove the weak on terror argument from the dialog. Using people and in this case soldiers as a vehicle to help get elected just seems rather vile to me. I hope in the end I'm proven wrong and we get out of that hell hole under his watch but from what I'm reading about the build up of bases and military infrastructure, I have serious doubts.
I don't get the impression it was all politically motivated, though I won't discount the possibility. There are always things going on behind the scenes during any war which are not visible to the public. (Example: Examine the relationship between G.H.W. Bush, Manuel Noriega and Operation Just Cause. The truth is shockingly different from the public facade).
When Obama took office, he inherited two failing wars and could not simply walk away from either one of them. In Afghanistan, the initial invasion was more than justified because the 9/11 attacks were planned there and supported by the Taliban. There's little evidence to show otherwise. Tossing them to the curb was, in my opinion, the right thing to do.
However, from that successful invasion came a muddle and ill-conceived effort to prevent the Taliban from regaining control by installing a functioning, democratic government where none had ever existed before. Trapped by ideological blindness and behind the scenes economic shenanigans, the Bush adminstration handed off to Obama a war which was rapidly being lost. He had to do something or conditions there would return to exactly the way they were when the Taliban was aiding and abetting al Queda with the addition of Taliban anger at us for interfering with their Islamic revolution. Keeping that from happening is a legitimate exercise in American self-interest and self-defense.
The problem for Obama, though, is how. He's caught up in things which he doesn't fully understand, any more than did George Bush, our senior political and military leaders and most American's. The under-currents driving what's really happening in Afghanistan pretty much precludes an eventual outcome which we will find palatible. Like Woodrow Wilson after WWI, the real power brokers in Pakistan and India are taking us for a ride, using our wealth and manpower to achieve objectives which we're mostly not even aware of.
Ultimately, it seems to me that Obama's objective is to put enough pressure on the Taliban to negotiate our way out of that mess and deal with the aftermath later. I don't see there is anything else he can do.
Edit: I should have included Iran in that list of nations playing us for fools. They're probably doing a better job of manipulating events and taking advantage of our Innocents Abroad attitude to strengthen their own position than anyone.
The Military's plan is the same as Vietnam, Idon't think any of the Politicians have a clue. I think we have embraced the proverbial Tar Baby
Considering the military leadership often spends the entirety of its career in the study of all things war, and a politician is a tourist to the subject, I suspect most political figures don't have much of a clue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stillkit
However, from that successful invasion came a muddle and ill-conceived effort to prevent the Taliban from regaining control by installing a functioning, democratic government where none had ever existed before. Trapped by ideological blindness and behind the scenes economic shenanigans, the Bush adminstration handed off to Obama a war which was rapidly being lost. He had to do something or conditions there would return to exactly the way they were when the Taliban was aiding and abetting al Queda with the addition of Taliban anger at us for interfering with their Islamic revolution. Keeping that from happening is a legitimate exercise in American self-interest and self-defense.
The problem for Obama, though, is how. He's caught up in things which he doesn't fully understand, any more than did George Bush, our senior political and military leaders and most American's. The under-currents driving what's really happening in Afghanistan pretty much precludes an eventual outcome which we will find palatible. Like Woodrow Wilson after WWI, the real power brokers in Pakistan and India are taking us for a ride, using our wealth and manpower to achieve objectives which we're mostly not even aware of.
Ultimately, it seems to me that Obama's objective is to put enough pressure on the Taliban to negotiate our way out of that mess and deal with the aftermath later. I don't see there is anything else he can do.
Edit: I should have included Iran in that list of nations playing us for fools. They're probably doing a better job of manipulating events and taking advantage of our Innocents Abroad attitude to strengthen their own position than anyone.
The ideological trap we are experiencing is that the United States believes we can project global power and dominance for any length of time, based upon the idea that we should. Our foreign policy is little more than a continuation of Manifest Destiny laid out upon the world. We paper over it with the idea that we can "spread democracy" but this is utter nonsense, as democracy at the point of a gun isn't democracy, its tyranny.
We have taken small scale tactical victories in places like Panama, Grenada, and Desert Storm and attempted to apply them in a strategic manner on a vast geopolitical landscape and it has proven a fools game. It flies in the face of nearly every military example doctrinal example of what not to do. I suspect even Sun Tzu would roll his eyes and say, what fools.
The best possible outcome is for Obama to point out that less than 100 Al Qaeda remain within Afghanistan, the Taliban that harbored those who did attack us have been removed from power, and to declare victory and come home while we can do so with a shred of dignity.
Is it hollow, yes, but will spending another 30 years there, countless US lives and another trillion or two down the drain going to improve the situation, highly unlikely.
It is shocking to me that our attempt to occupy Afghanistan and forcefully build it into a modern, democratic nation that behaves in accordance to our interests is not going as planned.
Considering the military leadership often spends the entirety of its career in the study of all things war, and a politician is a tourist to the subject, I suspect most political figures don't have much of a clue.
The ideological trap we are experiencing is that the United States believes we can project global power and dominance for any length of time, based upon the idea that we should. Our foreign policy is little more than a continuation of Manifest Destiny laid out upon the world. We paper over it with the idea that we can "spread democracy" but this is utter nonsense, as democracy at the point of a gun isn't democracy, its tyranny.
We have taken small scale tactical victories in places like Panama, Grenada, and Desert Storm and attempted to apply them in a strategic manner on a vast geopolitical landscape and it has proven a fools game. It flies in the face of nearly every military example doctrinal example of what not to do. I suspect even Sun Tzu would roll his eyes and say, what fools.
The best possible outcome is for Obama to point out that less than 100 Al Qaeda remain within Afghanistan, the Taliban that harbored those who did attack us have been removed from power, and to declare victory and come home while we can do so with a shred of dignity.
Is it hollow, yes, but will spending another 30 years there, countless US lives and another trillion or two down the drain going to improve the situation, highly unlikely.
Reading over the British Afghan Wars is useful. Things haven't changed much in 200 years except that Air Superiority has reduced the number of troops needed. We can't win with Karzai in place
Reading over the British Afghan Wars is useful. Things haven't changed much in 200 years except that Air Superiority has reduced the number of troops needed. We can't win with Karzai in place
I have literally stared at the map of this region for hours and have even penciled in notes further and further to the edges of the map where this war continues to expand. Whether Karzai is there or not, the notion of fighting terrorist and insurgents as though there is a possible victory in this shy of killing every man woman and child.
Al Qaeda, according to our own intel has less than apx 100 members within Afghanistan, most have since either slipped across the border to Pakistan or are heading to Yemen. Additionally, Taliban members who our war has expanded to include pretty much anyone identifying themselves as such have now spread north into the two adjoining "Stan" states.
We "whack" them over there so we don't have to fight them here, this mantra has been held as though it is even reasonable or rational. Truth is, we whack them there and there and there and there and there and there and yet still we find that we have to stop them here as well.
Any person who picks up a gun and fires at what they see as an invader, is an insurgent or a terrorist, and that is getting to be the bulk of the population of an entire region that expands across several nations and continues to encompass greater and greater numbers of people, not to mention funding from places like Iran and possibly even Russia, who I'm sure wouldn't mind watching us bleed to death.
Karzai emulates US legislators and takes bags of money?
I'd call that progress.... I like him because he is like us.
The legislator with 90k in his freezer, Barney, Rangell and a whole host of others would see that as business as usual. Tim 'the tax cheat' Guitner got to head the treasury as payment for his crimes.
Gosh, they had to get a bus to handle the arrest of the 40 or so NJ mayors and luminaries this past summer. So what did you say Karzai did?
we must be training someone because they tag along with our forces
Because we drag suitcases full of money where ever we go and always seem to lose a few billion here and there. Why wouldn't anyone follow us ?
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US drug users money to Iran then to Karzai...
