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Airline travel is heavily subsidized and will be more in the future as fuel costs continue to rise. How well do you think that airline would be doing now if it were part of your fantastic privatized business model? You're a fool to believe you could afford to fly coast to coast for less than the price of a first class ticket now.
You're talking about a special purchase that is not always available, and airliners are incredibly crowded and uncomfortable for just about everyone over 5'7 and most definitely anyone who weighs more than about 250lbs.
I saw one news show that reported the typical airliner is barely making a profit from passengers, and often, it's the air cargo that makes or breaks a flight. It makes one very wary of the airline industry. A major hike in jet fuel will not be pleasant to endure.
Airline travel is heavily subsidized and will be more in the future as fuel costs continue to rise. How well do you think that airline would be doing now if it were part of your fantastic privatized business model? You're a fool to believe you could afford to fly coast to coast for less than the price of a first class ticket now.
You're talking about a special purchase that is not always available, and airliners are incredibly crowded and uncomfortable for just about everyone over 5'7 and most definitely anyone who weighs more than about 250lbs.
I know how that feels. I'm not obese I sit comfortably in the seats on the airplanes but I'm still rubbing elbows with other people. The seats on Amtrak are comfortably large as to not violate my personal space like the airplanes do.
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Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey
Nah , there aren't many Private European Rail Companies. There are a few but there small. Amtrak has been doing Discounts for the past 2 years and it has been very successful in adding ridership. Alot of Trains are sold out and there buying more trains. You have to book 14 days in Advance. We used to have alot of Private Rail companies but then the Govt destoried them. If the FRA and FTA relaxed some Rules i'm sure we would have alot again. I guess you haven't used any Northeastern Amtrak lines , Freight yields to Passenger over here except in Virgina. I don't think there are any Trains form Harrisburg to Seattle you have to Switch in Chicago. The own all the tracks in the Northeast , although other transit agencies do own some. The Goverment has full control in most parts of Europe of the Railway system. Maybe you should re-check your facts....
That's what needs to happen. Regulations need to be relaxed. All these environmental impact studies, contract bidding, special rules that the government has to allow companies owned by minorities at least a small stake in the project, etc. need to go away. Then contruction would be VASTLY cheaper AND it will be completed within a reasonable timeframe. Amtrak's projects to expand and better the service is way too slow. 30 years is way too long to do something like that. By the way I've ridden Amtrak loads of times before from Lancaster to New York City and Philadelphia and I have to say I love the ride. They are comfortable and fast. But outside of AAA, military, and Student discounts, what discounts are you talking about? I've never heard of them and I'm no stranger to Amtrak. By advanced purchase discounts a la Greyhound, I mean you save 20-50% off the regular price. Amtrak is only cheap between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia because the Commonwealth of PA subsidizes the Keystone trains.
I know how that feels. I'm not obese I sit comfortably in the seats on the airplanes but I'm still rubbing elbows with other people. The seats on Amtrak are comfortably large as to not violate my personal space like the airplanes do.
That's what needs to happen. Regulations need to be relaxed. All these environmental impact studies, contract bidding, special rules that the government has to allow companies owned by minorities at least a small stake in the project, etc. need to go away. Then contruction would be VASTLY cheaper AND it will be completed within a reasonable timeframe. Amtrak's projects to expand and better the service is way too slow. 30 years is way too long to do something like that. By the way I've ridden Amtrak loads of times before from Lancaster to New York City and Philadelphia and I have to say I love the ride. They are comfortable and fast. But outside of AAA, military, and Student discounts, what discounts are you talking about? I've never heard of them and I'm no stranger to Amtrak. By advanced purchase discounts a la Greyhound, I mean you save 20-50% off the regular price. Amtrak is only cheap between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia because the Commonwealth of PA subsidizes the Keystone trains.
49$ form Harrisburg to Newark / NYP , thats the same price form NYP / Newark to Boston or DC. Keystone runs on a profit or near it , its not subsided anymore. Thats due to the upgrading and Ridership growth. However the other planned PA lines , will need Subsidizing to get off there feet. But in the long run , the PA network once completed won't need any. As for the Regulations and studies i don't really see the need for most of them. Maybe if its a Major huge project , but after some research of the lines planned for the 2040 Rail restoration plan , they don't make sense. Well the stations don't , some don't connect to existing lines , others are in the middle of nowhere or are wasteful. There are a few Freight companies in New England that want to switch back , but are scared of sticker shock. Infact if we got rid of some of the Regs and Expensive studies we could re-Privatize the network in a great way.
Indeed. All this talk about how much it costs for a mile of rail, but in many places the roadbed is already down and the land acquired.
When you think about "building" high-speed rail service in this country, you might want to make reference to how the interstate highway system was built .. in that the two aren't really very different from each other.
Our standard rail line systems are grossly inadequate (as were our highways in 1929) and would have to be rebuilt virtually from scratch (just like our interstates were). New high speed service would also require new, dedicated rail lines built to specific tolerances and levels of durability. This would include having to aquire/purchase vast expanses of new land, in order to provide a secure right-of-way for the new high speed service.
Even if the high-speed service were built to only accomodate our largest cities, the cost, in todays dollars, would be prohibitive .. to put it into plain English?? .. It aint gonna happen folks.
Amtrak trains usually operate at about 2/3 of the technically possible speed on curvy track, and could operate at about 1/2 of the technically possible speed on really steep curvy mountain routes.
...
In the USA, trains like the type 411 EMU are not allowed to operate. US regulations require a very high carbody strength for political reasons, which adds several tons of weight to a vehicle. If this mass is added to a European tilting EMU or DMU, it is no longer safe to operate at 11.8 inches of unbalanced superelevation, because the maximum safe axleload is exceeded.
The Acela Express is built to these strength standards. It is nearly double as heavy as European or Japanese tilting trains. Instead of restricting the axleload to 16 tons or less, the powercars weigh 25 tons per axle. No safety authority would allow values like those for the German 411 or 610 for this train, because the forces at the wheel-rail contact point would be too high for safe operation.
As a result, the "Acela Express" loses about half an hour between New York and Boston, compared to best practice in tilting train usage. (It also loses at least half an hour, compared to the calculations of US railroad engineers in the 1960s.)
49$ form Harrisburg to Newark / NYP , thats the same price form NYP / Newark to Boston or DC. Keystone runs on a profit or near it , its not subsided anymore. Thats due to the upgrading and Ridership growth. However the other planned PA lines , will need Subsidizing to get off there feet. But in the long run , the PA network once completed won't need any.
Yeah 49$ IF you're not coming back home but for most people it would cost 92$ of course. Although now Amtrak has a new kid on the block they need to watch out for. And that's megabus. I've ridden them to New York City already and I'll say paying $10 for roundtrip busfare on a brand new bus with amenities like a flush toilet and power outlets and driving for an hour to Baltimore to catch the bus (with free parking) is better than paying +/- $90 plus pay for parking which is $4 per day. Amtrak will have to compete with the especially since now megabus runs from Harrisburg to Philly as well
Amtrak trains usually operate at about 2/3 of the technically possible speed on curvy track, and could operate at about 1/2 of the technically possible speed on really steep curvy mountain routes.
...
In the USA, trains like the type 411 EMU are not allowed to operate. US regulations require a very high carbody strength for political reasons, which adds several tons of weight to a vehicle. If this mass is added to a European tilting EMU or DMU, it is no longer safe to operate at 11.8 inches of unbalanced superelevation, because the maximum safe axleload is exceeded.
The Acela Express is built to these strength standards. It is nearly double as heavy as European or Japanese tilting trains. Instead of restricting the axleload to 16 tons or less, the powercars weigh 25 tons per axle. No safety authority would allow values like those for the German 411 or 610 for this train, because the forces at the wheel-rail contact point would be too high for safe operation.
As a result, the "Acela Express" loses about half an hour between New York and Boston, compared to best practice in tilting train usage. (It also loses at least half an hour, compared to the calculations of US railroad engineers in the 1960s.)
Are tracks are wider in North America , everything is different then Europe and Asia. China does copy us , the only light trains in China are the HSR ones. Everything else is heavy. Thats not why the Acela lose an Hr , my god where do you get this stuff form...... The Corridor is currently being upgraded , so trains have to slow down by 20-40mph , the Corridor is very crowded. 4-6 Tracks is not enough anymore. That should go away when they reopen 2 corridors in PA and Jersey.
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Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed
Yeah 49$ IF you're not coming back home but for most people it would cost 92$ of course. Although now Amtrak has a new kid on the block they need to watch out for. And that's megabus. I've ridden them to New York City already and I'll say paying $10 for roundtrip busfare on a brand new bus with amenities like a flush toilet and power outlets and driving for an hour to Baltimore to catch the bus (with free parking) is better than paying +/- $90 plus pay for parking which is $4 per day. Amtrak will have to compete with the especially since now megabus runs from Harrisburg to Philly as well
Yea , but Megabus has been cutting safety corners lately and has had alot of accidents. I don't see it catching on in the Middle Class that well. Amtrak caters mostly to the Middle Class in the Northeast , although they should lower prices and cater to the college crowd. I'm sure once the NEC network is upgraded they will.
We are prisoners of economic geography. Suburbanization after World War II made most rail travel impractical. From 1950 to 2000, the share of the metropolitan population living in central cities fell from 56 percent to 32 percent, report UCLA economists Leah Platt Boustan and Allison Shertzer in a new study. Jobs moved too. Trip origins and destinations are too dispersed to support most rail service.
By the numbers, there is no justification to support the colossal initial investment and on-going subsidies that would be required for high speed rail that in the end would benefit a comparatively minute percentage of the commuting public.
This is why the railroads (whom already own most of the required infrastructure) are not doing it themselves.
Last edited by Frank DeForrest; 11-02-2010 at 07:46 AM..
By the numbers, there is no justification to support the colossal initial investment and on-going subsidies that would be required for high speed rail that in the end would benefit a comparatively minute percentage of the commuting public.
This is why the railroads (whom already own most of the required infrastructure) are not doing it themselves.
Get "big government" out of the road business, and see how fast we get privatized passenger train service again.
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but for most people it would cost 92$ of course. Although now Amtrak has a new kid on the block they need to watch out for. And that's megabus. I've ridden them to New York City already and I'll say paying $10 for roundtrip busfare on a brand new bus with amenities like a flush toilet and power outlets and driving for an hour to Baltimore to catch the bus (with free parking) is better than paying +/- $90 plus pay for parking which is $4 per day. Amtrak will have to compete with the especially since now megabus runs from Harrisburg to Philly as well
