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1. The platitudes of freedom and liberty are little more than buzz words. How can we be founded on freedom, yet simultaneously allow specific people own other human beings? How can a country tout liberty yet not allow women to vote for more than half its history?
2. Among industrialized nations we have some of the (if not the) highest rates of debt. We have the highest rate of crime, some of the lowest education rates, the lowest output of scientists and mathematicians and in the last 100 years we have experienced more war (or police actions) than peace.
These aren't just little white problems...
Point one has been fixed and is in the process of being fixed all the time.
Point two has nothing to do with freedom. You are free to be stupid and poor if you choose. With freedom comes responsibility, but not everyone is up to the challenge. You can become a nanny state and coddle this dead weight or you can let 'em sink or swim. But either way, they're free to choose.
well face it we are the most imperialistic country on the globe. We have caused the needless death of a million plus Iraqis and for what? so checny can get his stock options.
We enter our wars based on the $gain of a select few. and they get our young to die and suffer countless injuries so they can profit... its disgusting.
No one is saying anything is perfect. Sorry but no living species is. However Americans using the freedoms that we fight for in any manner is the same freedoms that make us look at our mistakes and move on. You look back for advice and knowledge but you look forward to accomplish.
We all love our parents and grand parents, but how many times have we heard them say "I wish I had known then what I know now". That because they look back and see the mistakes made in their lifetime and use that information so not to make the same mistake again. Where there is no freedom as America affords there is no personal acknowledgement of our failures.
Life would be lacking if we lost your right to vote, or ability to post your thoughts on this board. The ability to disagree with something another says and the freedom to say it is what the fathers wanted.
Ben Franklin was a brilliant statesman but he was a horrible father and husband. To the extent that he ands his son disowned each other over loyalties to the crown. When The elder was aged into his late 70's he regretted his failures to his family. In fact he plead for a Pardon for William (his son) who took arms against the colonists in NY.
So make our mistakes learn from them, and speak of them. Because if you don't you fail freedom. If freedom of man clashes with your desire to have better credit, better schooling, better this or better that then I suggest that you are placing that desire above each man and woman's individuality, and denying them the right to fail and succeed on his/her own ability and to grow from those achievements and failures.
Many a man has tried to make a perfect society. A Utopia if you will. All have failed because they lack the ability to acknowledge people as individuals. The freedom that America offers is the ability for man to make mistakes, learn and move on. Stop trying to be perfect. Stop dreaming of Utopia, your never gonna have the perfect society. Take what you are afforded by the Constitution of these United States and the Declaration of Independence and move forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stan4
Point one has been fixed and is in the process of being fixed all the time.
Point two has nothing to do with freedom. You are free to be stupid and poor if you choose. With freedom comes responsibility, but not everyone is up to the challenge. You can become a nanny state and coddle this dead weight or you can let 'em sink or swim. But either way, they're free to choose.
I can't expect perfection or utopia. But if we are going to tout ourselves as being the pinnacle of civilization we need to back that up. If we are on the bottom of education, that means there has to be someone on the top which means that a good education isn't a Utopian dream, it's a reality - it is possible. There is absolutely no reason or excuse that the greatest nation on earth has some of the lowest education levels.
I'll assume for a moment that this can be blamed on personal responsibility. Why then is there so much personal irresponsibility? If millions upon millions of Americans are so personally irresponsible, that means that something is wrong.
This view of individual responsibility makes it look like our society, our traditions, our community and our "culture" have no impact whatsoever on the shaping of the individual.
The OP's statement that Americans are violent is intentionally misleading. Americans at the landing at Plymouth Rock knew that their choice would not only be a hard choice against nature and the elements but also the leaders of other nations.
Do you factor in the Native Americans who the Pilgrims displaced as "other nations" or in the '"nature and elements" category?
Do you factor in the Native Americans who the Pilgrims displaced as "other nations" or in the '"nature and elements" category?
I do that every day. I'm a 1/3 Navajo. John Wayne said that the Indians had land we needed and we took it. He was right.
I grew up in a small county (population wise) in Colorado. During the 90's that small county became the fastest growing county in the US, in fact today it is home to the largest subdivision in the US, "Highlands Ranch".
I got really angry because we were loosing land very fast. My family ranch had to be sold because of death and taxes and other financial commitments. I would curs any newcomer that could. They were all a bunch of SOB's in my book and there was no dissuading me.
My mother finely got concerned and showed me that each family has 2 to 4 children, some more some less. There is typically 3 generations still living on the planet. Grand parents, parents, and children. The youngest grows and moves from the nest and needs housing.
Understand that I was very young so my mom was very much trying to simplify it for me in order to show me that my anger over losing the property was not a reason to go on the war path. However it is a simplistic way of showing that the population grows and people have to go someplace.
Now I won't get into a debate over wether the indians were abused. That is past. Again we look back and learn but look forward to advance.
YOU: Look at our History...America's The Violent One
Nope, never claimed that I supported this statement. Where did you get the idea that I did?
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey
Also YOU: You certainly do seem inclined to bring up old wrongs when it suits you...
And you as well.
That was indeed me.
And yes, I like to bring up old wrongs.
But, Madam, the important difference is that I don't deny doing so, and that I like to do so regardless of ideologies and national pride.
It's never a bad thing to try to learn from history, and mostly this can't be accomplished by denying facts ("but the others did so too..."), but by looking at all sides (given that enough data is available).
At a time when our president and other politicians tend to apologize for our country's prior actions, here's a refresher on how some of our former patriots handled negative comments about our country.
These
are good
JFK'S
Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, was in France in the early 60's when
DeGaulle decided to pull out of NATO. DeGaulle said he wanted all US
military out of France as soon as possible.
Rusk responded,
"Does that include those who are buried here?"
DeGaulle
did not respond.
You
could have heard a pin drop.
When in England ,
at a fairly large conference, Colin Powell was asked by the
Archbishop of Canterbury if our plans for Iraq were just an example of
'empire building' by George Bush.
He answered by saying,
"Over the years, the United States has sent many of
its fine young men and women into great peril to fight for freedom
beyond our borders. The only amount of land we have ever asked for
in return is enough to bury those that did not
return."
You
could have heard a pin drop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There was a conference in France
where a number of international engineers
were taking part, including French and American. During a break,
one of the French engineers came back into the room saying, "Have you
heard the latest dumb stunt Bush has done? He has sent an aircraft
carrier to Indonesia to help the tsunami victims. What does he
intend to do, bomb them?"
A Boeing engineer
stood up and replied quietly: "Our carriers have three
hospitals on board that can treat several hundred people; they are
nuclear powered and can supply emergency electrical power to
shore facilities; they have three cafeterias with the capacity to
feed 3,000 people three meals a day, they can produce several thousand
gallons of fresh water from sea water each day, and they carry half a
dozen helicopters for use in transporting victims and injured to and
from their flight deck. We have eleven such ships;
how many does France have?"
You
could have heard a pin drop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A U.S. Navy Admiral
was attending a naval conference that included
Admirals from the U.S., English, Canadian, Australian and French
Navies At a cocktail reception, he found himself standing with a large
group of officers that included personnel from most of those countries.
Everyone was chatting away in English as they sipped their drinks but a
French admiral suddenly complained that, whereas Europeans learn many
languages, Americans learn only English. He then asked, "Why is it that
we always have to speak English in these conferences rather than
speaking French?"
Without hesitating,
the American Admiral replied, "Maybe it's because the
Brit's, Canadians, Aussie's and Americans arranged it so you wouldn't
have to speak German."
You
could have heard a pin drop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AND
THIS STORY FITS RIGHT IN WITH THE ABOVE...
Robert Whiting,
an elderly gentleman of 83, arrived in Paris by plane.
At French Customs, he took a few minutes to locate his passport
in his carry on.
"You
have been to France before, monsieur?" the customs officer asked
sarcastically.
Mr. Whiting
admitted that he had been to France
previously.
"Then
you should know enough to have your passport ready."
The American said,
"The last time I was here, I didn't have to show it."
"Impossible..
Americans always have to show their passports on arrival in France !"
The American senior
gave the Frenchman a long hard look. Then he
quietly explained, ''Well, when I came ashore at Omaha Beach on D-Day in
1944 to help liberate this country, I couldn't find a single Frenchmen
to show a passport to."
You
could have heard a pin drop.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If
you are proud to be an American, pass this on! If not, delete it.
I am proud to be of this land, AMERICA
Yes, it was an e-mail and I think it fits your subject matter and explains what kind of country we have been. Now I hope we can all hear a pin drop.
well said
Quote:
Originally Posted by AONE
well face it we are the most imperialistic country on the globe. We have caused the needless death of a million plus Iraqis and for what? so checny can get his stock options.
We enter our wars based on the $gain of a select few. and they get our young to die and suffer countless injuries so they can profit... its disgusting.
really? based on history i doubt we even crack the top ten. lets start with japan and china, and the roman empire, the ottoman empire, the greek empire, the british empire, the soviet union and before that the russian empire, the french empire. the history of the world is rife with war and abuse of man.
Not a Shock Thread, only for open-minded discussion
Now If you look at most of the wars in American History and see what is the reason behind all of it? You tell me
War dead:
WWII- 72 million. Not started by the U.S.
An Shi Rebellion- 36 million. Not started by the U.S.
Mongol Conquests- 60 million. Not started by the U.S.
WWI- 65 million. Not started by the U.S.
Thirty Years War. 11.5 million. Not started by the U.S.
Genocide:
Ukranian Terror Famine 12 million dead. No fault of the U.S.
Pol Pot 3 million dead. No fault of the U.S
Nazi Germany 11 million dead. No fault of the U.S
Soviet Union 100 million dead. No fault of the U.S
Chairman Mao 65 million dead. No fault of the U.S
The United States has not always been right but we're amatuers when it comes to killin' folks.
And they can trust us? What reason would they have to trust us?
The US doesn't get to decide what the rest of the world does.
We attacked a sovereign nation for absolutely no reason...
That was my sarcasm. Thats why I included the atomic bomb explosion of Japan. Still the only nation to ever actually use one. and we did it TWICE and have citizens that would love to use one again.
That was my sarcasm. Thats why I included the atomic bomb explosion of Japan. Still the only nation to ever actually use one. and we did it TWICE and have citizens that would love to use one again.
we did it twice cause we only had 2 and a american assault on japan when japan ordered every man woman and child to fight us every step it saved lifes because it forced japan to surrender which it was not willing to do because they never lost before.
also Japan today has turned out alright.
as for using a nuclear weapon now we can't unless attacked first the US and russia and china have to lead by example we got through the cold war and that was a real threat of total nuclear war
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