Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-03-2010, 12:17 PM
 
35,016 posts, read 39,090,038 times
Reputation: 6195

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotair2 View Post
This is going to be the case no matter which party is in power.
Yes, it's not an article about the elections.

The righties need to learn it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-03-2010, 12:19 PM
 
25,024 posts, read 27,870,912 times
Reputation: 11790
Quote:
Originally Posted by jetgraphics View Post
Depending on how you measure "standard of living", it can mean different things. I would not rely upon money as a measure - because "Dollar bills" are a variable, not a constant, and that makes it a poor measure or standard.
If we take the standard to mean how much labor it takes to achieve a goal, thanks to labor saving technology, automation and mass production, it takes very little labor. On the other hand if the standard is a measure of how much fuel was consumed to achieve a goal, then it turns upside down. Labor intensive, but fuel saving technology would be superior.
Based on human nature, the labor saving mode is preferred.

The next step is to consider how we can do more, with less fuel, so that more can enjoy the benefits of our production.

Take the example of housing. It's not the size of the house, but how much fuel is consumed in its maintenance and climate control, that should be of concern. Also, the longevity of its components should be considered, as well. Current "rules" enforce minimal quality and minimum durability, as well as planned obsolescence and a pre-designed consumption rate. Superinsulation could remedy many of the problems with the current standard.

Ditto for transportation. For example, the automobile, whether petroleum fueled or electric, is far more wasteful than rail transport, by all measures. As populations grow, the roads become increasingly clogged, because the system is not as scalable as is rail transport. (By some estimates, one track has the equivalent carrying capacity of nine lanes of superhighway)

If America could transfer 80% of its long haul shipping to rail, rebuild electric urban rail mass transit, and remove 60% of the automobile volume from its cities, a tremendous savings would result... not to mention, the improvement of air quality.

And a parallel transition to population consolidation development served by rail would also boost the standard of living while reducing fuel consumption. Mixed use development where people and shopping, services, and other needs are close at hand would also boost the standard of living.

In short, we need a new vision to define what America can become, so that our "standard" level of consumption of fuel drops while we can enjoy more goods and services... the true measure of prosperity.


Don't forget that I'm hearing rumors that the Fed might be set to monetize the debt.

"
The Federal Reserve is expected to announce a new round of bond-buying today to lower long-term interest rates to boost the economy.
Debate is raging inside and outside the Fed about how much good it will do, if any. Proponents say purchasing hundreds of billions of dollars more in Treasury bonds will provide only modest support for the economy. Foes warn that it could backfire by pushing up commodity prices, sowing seeds of unwelcome inflation in the future, or by undermining confidence in the Fed’s ability to manage — and eventually reduce — its holdings."



Q&A on QE2: What a Fed Move Would Mean - Real Time Economics - WSJ


QE2 here we come
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 12:34 PM
 
Location: in my imagination
13,584 posts, read 21,356,616 times
Reputation: 10082
Well somebodies standard must being going up because if you have noticed fuel is going up, my health insurance premium keeps going up, the parts for your car keep going up, the utilities bills keep going up, the price of food keeps going up, so someone at the end of the rainbow must be banking from the markups. In the meantime wages are lowering or at least been the same for years for a lot of people.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
Reputation: 11416
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosinante View Post
????
This has what to do with the OP? Besides nothing, that is.
Care to try to stay on point?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 12:52 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
Reputation: 11416
Quote:
Originally Posted by TnHilltopper View Post
But what if that standard of living was in excess to start with?

I remember in my youth, having elders tell me that if you wanted to buy a house, you needed 10% down in cash, a good credit history, and that your housing cost should be roughly a single weeks pay check as a rule of thumb.

At the time, not everyone had a credit card and I recall my mother reluctant to ever use hers and viewed it as something to be used in an emergency and if something couldn't be afforded to be purchased, it was put on layaway. People saved up for things they wanted and they saved up for the 10% down payment on a house for years.

The era of easy, fast and loose credit is nearing its end. Gross consumption that has fueled our national existence through the 1980s, 90's, and beyond is coming to a close. For those folks who are older, I suspect they will better adapt and return to a manner of living more like that of their earlier years, but the folks who are in their 20's,30's, and their 40's are in for a real shock.

Welcome to the new world of humble living.
Not just our parents!
My mother couldn't get a credit card in her name; she was a woman...

Credit was very difficult to obtain. It took years for me to get credit. I had to start with a Lerner card and work my way up to more by using my card and paying it off to establish credit for about two years. It took several years to get a Sears card.
Even now, I have a self-imposed $3k limit on my card; never a balance and usually pay for what I'm going to buy.

What do I need?
You can only have so much stuff until it owns you.

My favorite folk singer, Greg Brown, has a great song that has the lines:
We have no knowledge
And so we have stuff
Stuff with no knowledge is never enough
To get you there


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 02:26 PM
 
11,135 posts, read 14,169,690 times
Reputation: 3696
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb1547 View Post
That may be the only really good thing that comes from all of this--people have to change, and it's a myth that overspending is a "liberal" thing. We live like that. We started with basically nothing (young and in debt up to our ears in student loans) but we worked our backsides off, lived simply, saved everything we could, and we're where we are today because of it--zero personal debt, except for a little left on our house, and fully funded retirement and college tuition for 5 kids. My DH has a great career, and we've been very lucky, but we still invest every dime we can, live fairly simply, and focus more on experiences like travel vs. accumulating stuff. We bought a huge old fixer upper farmhouse vs. a McMansion, remodeled it ourselves, and pretty much furnished it through estate sales, craigslist and Grandma's attic--it's lovely now. We take good care of our vehicles, and drive them into the ground. The funny part--many of our old republican friends thought we were nuts. Debt isn't a liberal thing--it's an American thing. I know just as many Republicans as Dem's who are underwater financially. Keeping up with the Jones has killed this country.
I think those folks who had the benefit of having a parent, grandparent, or someone they knew or even themselves, who lived through the Great Depression and the slim years around WWII. There was a fiscal prudence that was practiced in many aspects of their lives, as that generation truly knew what it was like to be without. The further we get from those times, the less responsible it seems people become. I agree it is not a left right thing, I see it more as a cultural social thing were entire generations have had it quite good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
Not just our parents!
My mother couldn't get a credit card in her name; she was a woman...

Credit was very difficult to obtain. It took years for me to get credit. I had to start with a Lerner card and work my way up to more by using my card and paying it off to establish credit for about two years. It took several years to get a Sears card.
Even now, I have a self-imposed $3k limit on my card; never a balance and usually pay for what I'm going to buy.

What do I need?
You can only have so much stuff until it owns you.
Credit is definitely one place we see this and another I've noticed is house size. I was recently helping a friend go house shopping and she liked an older neighborhood which was once the most affluent part of town. Mansion row so to speak, but on the fringes of this area were smaller homes of a more modest nature but immaculately kept and still in a very nice neighborhood. She being a younger person was shocked by a house that had three bedrooms and one bathroom, as well as those rooms being, in her words, "tiny". I asked, but it is just you and your daughter, how much space do you really need... well kids game room, a tv/entertainment room which I suppose could be in the basement, a guest room and I'd have to find a place for the computer stuff and so on and so on. I'm thinking, you want 3000 sq ft but unfortunately, they don't offer those in your price range. The search continues.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Sinking in the Great Salt Lake
13,139 posts, read 22,761,037 times
Reputation: 14116
What goes up, must come down. I guess if more Americans studied science instead of "intelligent design" at school they would have realized this by now.

Did people really think a quality of life based on ever-increasing consumption could only rise in a world of finite resources?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 03:57 PM
 
5,257 posts, read 6,181,499 times
Reputation: 3124
I think our standard of living should have been slipping for at least 35 years. But widespread credit card use and being able to treat housing as an ATM allowed many of us to live two rungs above what our salaries would dictate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
Reputation: 11416
You know, TnH, I have to agree on house size.
I have a 1,200 sf house in a nice area of my city (when I'm in the states, currently rented) and a second house that I was raised in. Neither are large or have large yards by today's standards but both raised large families where kids (gasp) shared rooms; each has only 1 bathroom.

I'd rather spend my money on fun than on utility bills and large mortgages.
I'm secure enough in myself not to feel compelled to compete with others by having things.

Funny story: I divorced my ex because he was very comfortable with debt and always maxed his cards; I'm horribly uncomfortable with debt and can't abide paying interest on anything. That was our irreconcilable difference.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-03-2010, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,321,515 times
Reputation: 27718
Asset bubbles allowed way too many people to live above their means and gave them the illusion of being wealthy.

Those are the ones who will feel it the most. It will be hard for them to live within or below their means.

Those that live within or below their means won't feel it so much but will see it happening to others all around. I hear it at work..selling the boat, selling the motorcycle, canceling that vacation but they are not yet at the point of bringing lunch to work..not quite yet.

Defining a standard of living based on debt got us to where we are today. It doesn't work
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:12 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top