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Old 11-09-2010, 09:22 PM
 
Location: central Oregon
1,908 posts, read 2,529,062 times
Reputation: 2493

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roaddog View Post
Yeah I see people in Kilts and Togas all the time, gosh how could I have forgotten.

So you let your 2 year old do whatever he wants?
Would you buy them a gun? why not?
Would you let them dress as hookers? why not?
Would you let them eat candy 24/7? why not?
Do you try to help them grow up in a safe way?
Do you have rules? why?
Would you want your kid to be a target of bullying and ridicule?
Why would anybody add emotional stress to a child’s life when it is unnecessary?
I posted the link and quote about kilts and togas because you said male fashion has been the same for over ten thousand years. I was just proving that wrong.

To answer your questions: (My son is an adult now.)
If my son wanted to do something at age 2 - and it wasn't harmful to his health - I let him explore the world around him. However, he did not get to do everything he wanted.
Of course I would not buy a gun for a 2 year old. Toddlers and guns don't mix well.
If he wanted to dress as a hooker at 2 then sure, why not. Who is going to care except closed minded people. Not something he did tho.
He is an adult now, so he grew up safe.
Of course I had rules. Lots of em. AND routines. They make life flow smoother.
My son spent the first 6 years of his school life being bullied because he IS different. He has Asperger's Syndrome that (at the time) was undiagnosed. He is weird, he is strange, and he IS different. I removed him from school in 6th grade and homeschooled him. I had to get him out of the school situation because THAT setting was causing him severe emotional stress.
Letting a child express himself in whatever way is comfortable for them is not harmful.
Any bullying is wrong. The child may well get bullied his whole life if he so chooses to wear dresses to school. Somehow I don't think this is really what this child has in mind. Heck, he could be bullied for anything.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LML View Post
You obviously didn't actually read what I wrote very carefully. The whole POINT was that, even though my 2 year old grandson WANTED to wear Spiderman PJs all the time, HIS PARENTS WOULD NOT LET HIM DO SO, and yet he still managed to grow up to be a healthy, successful, happy teen...even though his desire to be Spiderman was thwarted by his parents. In other words, a 2 year old child has parents for a reason...THEY AREN'T ABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES.
What is wrong with allowing that child to wear the pjs to the store or to the park? Would that have hurt anyone? Church, school, out to dinner - different situations which require a different set of clothes. Wearing pjs to the park or store is neither offensive nor damaging to anyone.
I feel so sorry for children who have parents that refuse them simple things like this. Makes me wonder in what other ways they may be stifling their child's creativity and growth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thHour View Post
Seems to me the problem isn't so much that a this child wants to wear dresses. It's that society at large would judge and/or tease him for doing so. Life is not black and white, it's mostly gray. Why can't we just quit trying to fit people into boxes they don't want to be in? Live and let live. This wouldn't be such an issue if kids were taught from the get go to accept people for who they are.
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:47 PM
 
277 posts, read 166,058 times
Reputation: 137
Maybe the mom is trying to make a point & get attention...maybe she's not. Who cares though?
I'm always perplexed by how many people don't get it that there are different people in the world. No one is cookie-cutter. You know what cookie-cutter gets you? A blight.
So the child is going to get ridiculed at school....it seems to be par for the course growing up. And they may get ridiculed when they get older, out of high school...so what? So these people may grow up to be very creative, different, thinking outside of the box. Sometimes that can be annoying when you don't think like them & sometimes it can be interesting & refreshing..
I'll say one thing: I'd much rather have a person who walks into the room looking different & who has a different perspective on life than someone who walks into the room w/a know it all, chip on their shoulder attitude. I've experienced plenty of that & it gets old real real quick.
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Old 11-10-2010, 12:41 AM
 
Location: California
37,056 posts, read 42,020,339 times
Reputation: 34872
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thHour View Post
Seems to me the problem isn't so much that a this child wants to wear dresses. It's that society at large would judge and/or tease him for doing so. Life is not black and white, it's mostly gray. Why can't we just quit trying to fit people into boxes they don't want to be in? Live and let live. This wouldn't be such an issue if kids were taught from the get go to accept people for who they are.
There have always been and always will be "social norms". It's part of a parents job to teach these things to their kids. If they grow up and want to challenge those things or be activists for change thats fine, but first they need to grow up. Teaching a child they can do whatever they want while trying to get everyone to accept it is irresponsible.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
3,849 posts, read 3,740,981 times
Reputation: 1706
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post
That's because there is no rational, objective reason why it's wrong. The only reasons they can come up with are based on:

Authority - God wants men to be masculine and women to be feminine, and the rules about masculinity and femininity are set by God.

Tradition - In my particular culture boys do this and girls do that and anything else is just wrong because, well, it is.

The only somewhat compelling argument is that allowing a boy to express himself in this way is "wrong" because it will bring the wrath of others down upon him. But when you dissect that argument you find that it's not an objective, rational reason. The person in the wrong here is the close-minded, intolerant bully (if it's a kid, it's because he learned intolerance from his parents). Also, it's an argument particular to a particular culture. There are and have been many cultures that tolerate and accept such things.

This argument also fails from the practical side. First, it presumes that you can suppress the different out of a kid and somehow change it. Certainly things like this can be a phase a kid soon outgrows, but some boys/men are feminine and some girls/women are masculine. If that's their nature and how they self-identify, then you're not going to be able to change that.

Parents that do try to suppress "different" personalities end up adding to the shame and stigmatization - not shielding their kids from it. They create kids with internalized shame that hate themselves - kids who feel they are inherently wrong because that's what their parents are expressing to them. Plus it's never really suppressed. The feminine boy is still feminine, and he's bullied anyway. A parent trying to repress it only succeeds in doubling the harm.
Oh I understand all of that and it's clear YOU understand it to be able to state it so clearly. But I'm getting the impression that most posting in this thread DON'T understand it - and what makes me sad is that they will likely NEVER understand it. Hell, they can't even keep to the facts of the story and keep insisting that the parents are "doing it to him" rather than accepting the fact that the boy made his own choice from the preschool play closet.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:38 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
14,460 posts, read 11,219,060 times
Reputation: 8974
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tulani View Post
I did a quick search for you:

men's fashions through the ages - Google Search

Some of these pictures are more recent than your "tens of thousands of years".

Is a kilt better than a skirt? A toga?

sheesh
You have major trouble with logic. Let me ask you this: Does today's men's fashion include frilly dresses?

Quote:
Thanks! Saved me from quoting that post.
At 2, my son was quite able to express his wishes with words and in fact knew just what he liked to eat, wear, read, watch, play with, etc.
Any normal 2 year old should be doing exactly the same. Some 2 year olds may be a bit delayed, but they should know what they like and don't like at this young age.
About a year ago my 2 year-old nephew lobbed a knife at his mother at the dinner table. But of course he was simply expressing himself, to squash that creativity would surely be tragic. Agreed tulani?
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
3,849 posts, read 3,740,981 times
Reputation: 1706
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaada View Post
talk about bs - its going to mess up and confuse this kid as he grows! (deleted insults) when do you set rules and boundaries? when do you say this is not right. where do you draw the line? nowhere according to you right? just let them do whatever they want when ever they want right.
I drew the line at harm - harm to oneself, harm to another. If something they wanted to do would cause no harm that I could see, they were allowed to do it. I see no harm in allowing a 2 y/o, a 5 y/o or even a 10-20 y/o dress up in the clothes that are meant for the opposite sex. If at a slightly older age (first, second or third grade) the boy wanted to go to school in a dress or even a sparkly shirt, I would spend a few minutes before school explaining to him that some of the other children in his class will likely tease him about his wardrobe choices, but I would not try to stifle his creativity by telling him he can't wear them. And if the school did not rein in the bullies, I would be there to remind them that their job is to educate my son and keep him safe while he's under their jurisdiction - meaning any bus he rides to and from school as well as at the school itself.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
3,849 posts, read 3,740,981 times
Reputation: 1706
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11thHour View Post
Seems to me the problem isn't so much that a this child wants to wear dresses. It's that society at large would judge and/or tease him for doing so. Life is not black and white, it's mostly gray. Why can't we just quit trying to fit people into boxes they don't want to be in? Live and let live. This wouldn't be such an issue if kids were taught from the get go to accept people for who they are.
Thing is, if the parents can't accept others for who they are, they can't teach their children to do so. I've noticed that it sometimes takes an emergency, with the "neighborhood odd duck" saving the day before some people learn that "odd" does not necessarily mean "wrong" or "dangerous".
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:56 AM
 
Location: NE Atlanta suburbs
472 posts, read 852,800 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by MsMcQ LV View Post
I drew the line at harm - harm to oneself, harm to another. If something they wanted to do would cause no harm that I could see, they were allowed to do it. I see no harm in allowing a 2 y/o, a 5 y/o or even a 10-20 y/o dress up in the clothes that are meant for the opposite sex. If at a slightly older age (first, second or third grade) the boy wanted to go to school in a dress or even a sparkly shirt, I would spend a few minutes before school explaining to him that some of the other children in his class will likely tease him about his wardrobe choices, but I would not try to stifle his creativity by telling him he can't wear them. And if the school did not rein in the bullies, I would be there to remind them that their job is to educate my son and keep him safe while he's under their jurisdiction - meaning any bus he rides to and from school as well as at the school itself.
This is little more than an attention seeking/sue happy propoganda.

You know full well if you let your kid go to school dressed that way, you're inviting trouble. And then you'd likely sue the school because other kids call him names? Unbelievable

This is what's wrong with our country today!
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:03 AM
 
Location: Boston, MA
14,460 posts, read 11,219,060 times
Reputation: 8974
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammertime33 View Post

Parents that do try to suppress "different" personalities end up adding to the shame and stigmatization - not shielding their kids from it. They create kids with internalized shame that hate themselves - kids who feel they are inherently wrong because that's what their parents are expressing to them. Plus it's never really suppressed. The feminine boy is still feminine, and he's bullied anyway. A parent trying to repress it only succeeds in doubling the harm.
I can only assume by this paragraph that you either have intimate, first hand experience with gender identity disorder or you are a psychologist. So for the purpose of full disclosure would you mind telling us which one applies to you.
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Old 11-10-2010, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Las Vegas, NV
3,849 posts, read 3,740,981 times
Reputation: 1706
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Joshua View Post
About a year ago my 2 year-old nephew lobbed a knife at his mother at the dinner table. But of course he was simply expressing himself, to squash that creativity would surely be tragic. Agreed tulani?
You actually equate "lobbing a knife" to choosing a different wardrobe? Good God, man! Use your brain for more than head filler. Throwing a knife (or other table utensil) is dangerous! What is dangerous about wearing a dress instead of pants and shirt?
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