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Old 11-10-2010, 05:48 AM
 
191 posts, read 456,945 times
Reputation: 214

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rory00 View Post
um, i see your point but it would be a lot better if the kids could actually learn something during school, not just after school, eh? for goodness sake, they are there ALL day, yet they aren't learning anything. interesting.

homework and parent involvement is one thing but there are a lot of issues at schools as to the inefficiency of time usage to actually teach something solid, worthwhile and fundamental. some of them are that children are allowed to disrupt class, inefficient teachers as well as not letting kids proceed at their own pace etc.

in short, lots of inefficiency and stupidity in the school system.
Who says they aren't learning anything? What a ridiculous statement!

You mean to tell me that you think that a child who is in the public education system for 13 years is going to leave having learned absolutely nothing?

The OP is about a learning gap, not a complete lack of learning. Students still learn. However, students who have parents that are involved and expect their child to succeed at school tend to learn more. There are exceptions to this, but by and large this is the way it is.

Let me leave you with a little example. I have two students in my 3rd period class. From an "intelligence" standpoint I believe they are about equal. However, child 1 makes almost straight A's and child 2 is barely passing. Child 1 lives in a home with parents who believe that their son can do anything, and expect him to behave in school and complete his assignments. Child 1 has a curfew, and goes to bed with dinner in his stomach.

Child 2 has a parent who is high all the time and is constantly having to move from one house to another because of money issues. Child 2 has no curfew, and has been picked up more than once by the police for being on the streets at about 3 am. Child 2 often tries to eat other students' lunch and breakfast because he is hungry and will take apples from lunch home with him.

So you tell me. When I stand in front of room of 33 and begin to teach, who do you think will be more capable of learning that day?

And finally, before you start talking about how many idiots are in the education system, I have to ask if you have ever worked in the education system. Sure there are idiots, but there are idiots everywhere. I don't believe that the number is disproportionate.
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:01 AM
 
191 posts, read 456,945 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rory00 View Post
strange.... because none of your statements is in any way practical, helpful or even insightful on this subject. you've merely made an observation, in your opinion. that's no different than calling a red apple, red. so what? your point has no use.

you cannot legislate that people stay married and so forth. it's unrealistic and almost cartoonish. it's like saying, wouldn't it be great if people were perfect, that would solve everything.

what would be practical or a possible solution is schools having a multi-faceted support system for students and creating better atmospheres for learning. what you are refusing to see is that with the right support system, a one parent home child could still succeed. there are after school programs and tutoring but none of these are seriously streamlined yet. the extra money schools recieve have not been put to the most creative and best use in most cases. also, one of the most banal and overlooked but is actually the most crucial is that schools be disciplined places for learning.

i also disagree with the traditional homework format of heavy homework, which causes a lot of problems or creates an unnecessary burden for students in troubled or neglected homes where they are not going to be helped and is setting up for failure. homework is the educational system's copout which is seriously wrong. kids are in school long enough to be taught (they are there all day and that's what the school system is for). adults aren't expected to bring work home after eight hours a day at work.
No, you cannot legislate it. However, as a society we can stop acting like it is perfectly wonderful for a 17-year-old girl to get pregnant. Or, that having multiple children from multiple problems is ok too.

The issue is not being a single parent, the issue is being a single parent who is going to struggle financially. I am sure that a wealthy woman who can ensure that her child is either in an excellent daycare or hire a nanny would do just fine (assuming she is not a crap head). However, an impoverished parent who is forced to work multiple jobs at weird hours ends up leaving her child at home alone at a young age. That is a problem.

So, no, we can't make a law. We can start calling a duck a duck, and say that it is not good for a child to home alone at 9 for 5-6 hours every night, which is often the result of a single-parent low-income home.


And finally. I will say it again. You want a solution? Go be the solution. Volunteer and be a mentor. We have a mentoring program in our school, and statistically we have found that our kids who are mentored on average increase their grades by one letter grade within 6 months. Further, their discipline referrals tend to decrease by 42% of their 4-year average. That much progress in 6 months? Imagine what would happen if you worked with a kid for 6 years!
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Old 11-10-2010, 06:05 AM
 
871 posts, read 1,627,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccr4tigers View Post
Who says they aren't learning anything? What a ridiculous statement!

You mean to tell me that you think that a child who is in the public education system for 13 years is going to leave having learned absolutely nothing?

The OP is about a learning gap, not a complete lack of learning. Students still learn. However, students who have parents that are involved and expect their child to succeed at school tend to learn more. There are exceptions to this, but by and large this is the way it is.

Let me leave you with a little example. I have two students in my 3rd period class. From an "intelligence" standpoint I believe they are about equal. However, child 1 makes almost straight A's and child 2 is barely passing. Child 1 lives in a home with parents who believe that their son can do anything, and expect him to behave in school and complete his assignments. Child 1 has a curfew, and goes to bed with dinner in his stomach.

Child 2 has a parent who is high all the time and is constantly having to move from one house to another because of money issues. Child 2 has no curfew, and has been picked up more than once by the police for being on the streets at about 3 am. Child 2 often tries to eat other students' lunch and breakfast because he is hungry and will take apples from lunch home with him.

So you tell me. When I stand in front of room of 33 and begin to teach, who do you think will be more capable of learning that day?

And finally, before you start talking about how many idiots are in the education system, I have to ask if you have ever worked in the education system. Sure there are idiots, but there are idiots everywhere. I don't believe that the number is disproportionate.

and you've just stated something that is already so obvious to anyone. it's been this way forever.

what i find somewhat ridiculous is your harping on good vs bad parenting and money issues. this is something that you or no one else can control. again, you are just pointing out the problem with not even an iota of a possible solution or insight into the matter, especially for someone who works in the school system. it's like waving your finger and shouting 'be better parents, then they will do well'. obviously if they were going to be or cared, it would already be happening.

there are school lunch programs for economically disadvantaged students but again, schools need to develop more of a comprehensive and multi-faceted approach to education. after-school programs, lunch, school supplies for disadvantaged and tutoring is a start.

Quote:
No, you cannot legislate it. However, as a society we can stop acting like it is perfectly wonderful for a 17-year-old girl to get pregnant. Or, that having multiple children from multiple problems is ok too.
You are a teacher? lol.

Most people don't think it's wonderful for a teenager to get pregnant or have multiple children from multiple partners. I don't know where you get this idea from. Also, it's already been pointed out to you that you can't force bad parents to be good parents.

again, you aren't even trying to pose any solutions which i find to be the most strange part of all your posts.

Quote:
Who says they aren't learning anything? What a ridiculous statement!
again, another strange statement. Obviously, they are not learning what they should because many graduate with a third grade reading level!

Quote:
We can start calling a duck a duck, and say that it is not good for a child to home alone at 9 for 5-6 hours every night, which is often the result of a single-parent low-income home.
Oh really? what a genius observation.

that's why the after school programs (if made to be flexible) would be a great help and asset to not only single parents but also to the students to not only be away from the streets or unsupervised but to use that time to be further tutored and do something constructive for their future etc.

Quote:
To those who wonder what WE can do, trying thinking about what YOU can do. Just because it's a national tragedy doesn't mean we should sit and wait for a NATIONAL solution in the form of legislation. What are you willing to do?
the start is figuring out a solution and trying to get it legislated. to leave it up just to volunteers is not enough, that's like saying leave it up to people to follow the law or show up when they want to. it's sloppy and will only create choppy results and unfair to the students that may get left out.

pouring money into schools without using that money in the best way is the waste. schools should hire tutors to meet the needs of the students, for example.

Last edited by rory00; 11-10-2010 at 06:31 AM..
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Old 11-10-2010, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Orlando, Florida
43,854 posts, read 51,027,008 times
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As most issues, this isn't a 'black' issue. It is a 'poverty' issue which can be applied to any race. As a white single mom, I couldn't afford tutors or be able to take off of work every time there was a school function. I couldn't afford summer camps and a whole assortment of things that may have helped my kids 'be all they could be'.

But in the end, it is up to the kid as well. Kids, of ANY race, who want to achieve have a tendency to grab the resources available to them and do outstanding things. Other kids, of ANY race, have a tendency to slack off and only do what they have to.

The great part is their educational or career choice doesn't define them as a human being. There are lots of wonderful people, of ALL races, who have less education and lower paying jobs and are worth a whole lot more than many of the super achievers.

So, is it possible we are making much more out of the end result than we really need to?
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Old 11-10-2010, 09:31 AM
 
78,013 posts, read 60,221,209 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GloryB View Post
As most issues, this isn't a 'black' issue. It is a 'poverty' issue which can be applied to any race. As a white single mom, I couldn't afford tutors or be able to take off of work every time there was a school function. I couldn't afford summer camps and a whole assortment of things that may have helped my kids 'be all they could be'.

But in the end, it is up to the kid as well. Kids, of ANY race, who want to achieve have a tendency to grab the resources available to them and do outstanding things. Other kids, of ANY race, have a tendency to slack off and only do what they have to.

The great part is their educational or career choice doesn't define them as a human being. There are lots of wonderful people, of ALL races, who have less education and lower paying jobs and are worth a whole lot more than many of the super achievers.

So, is it possible we are making much more out of the end result than we really need to?
Read the article. It is absolutely an issue impacting a racial group that goes beyond poverty. As with anything there are likely multiple causes including high numbers of blacks in failing school systems, parental involvment, cultural pressures etc.

Me personally, I think our sports\entertainment culture is the biggest reason. Too many people idolizing ball players and entertainers and not studying.

This worked great back in the day when any dope could get a decent enough job with benefits working at the local factory but the times have changed.

Go into MOST ANY school and who are the kids that are getting their names in the paper, special treatments from adults, attention....girls wanting to date them....it's the athletes. Highschool football coaches in some states make huge money and some don't even teach...they just coach.

This is utter retardation. Host a math competition or spelling bee....then have a youth sports camp and the racial difference between the groups will blow your mind.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:11 AM
 
871 posts, read 1,627,245 times
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another issue is that schools don't address individual needs/strengths/interestis and the different people that children are.

after elementary education (which should be focused on the basics to make sure they have it down), in middle school they should be introduced to various possible vocations as well as tested for personality, temperament, as well as interests, strengths and weaknesses. this should be ongoing as they progress in school years. teenagers get very little guidance and are expected to just randomly pick when they don't know. at least give them some idea of what they might be suited for but give them a choice still. there really is no need for someone to continue high school(in some cases) or higher education/college if that's not necessary for them.

there should be vocational workshops constantly as well as different companies/trades visiting or even recruiting for training early on, especially starting in high school. possibly as early as seventh grade or middle school. most kids just get floosy and half-assed counseling or none as to to future vocations right before graduation. testing to see what the child is and who they are is as important and enlightening for the child and more helpful than just telling them just to pick anything out of myriads of choices without knowing what they might possibly be best at, good at or enjoy.

there is a stigma to trade schools(looked down upon) and that is ridiculous. trade schools should become more popular and more comprehensive.
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Old 11-10-2010, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
29,696 posts, read 34,240,753 times
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Quote:
after elementary education (which should be focused on the basics to make sure they have it down), in middle school they should be introduced to various possible vocations as well as tested for personality, temperament, as well as interests, strengths and weaknesses. this should be ongoing as they progress in school years. teenagers get very little guidance and are expected to just randomly pick when they don't know. at least give them some idea of what they might be suited for but give them a choice still. there really is no need for someone to continue high school(in some cases) or higher education/college if that's not necessary for them.

there should be vocational workshops constantly as well as different companies/trades visiting or even recruiting for training early on, especially starting in high school. possibly as early as seventh grade or middle school. most kids just get floosy and half-assed counseling or none as to to future vocations right before graduation. testing to see what the child is and who they are is as important and enlightening for the child and more helpful than just telling them just to pick anything out of myriads of choices without knowing what they might possibly be best at, good at or enjoy.
Sounds great, but where's the funding for all of this coming from?
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Old 11-10-2010, 01:15 PM
 
871 posts, read 1,627,245 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fleetiebelle View Post
Sounds great, but where's the funding for all of this coming from?
it wouldn't need funding. personality, vocational tests etc like iq tests is something that can be implemented, it doesn't require lots of money. they just need to use the money more wisely and a lot of it can be done by community involvement in schools such as the vocational workshops, counseling and recruiting. the military go to schools often but that's not enough. it's just getting more creative, it doesn't always require more money. there has been massive amounts of money thrown to schools where it was ineffective because it was squandered by not using it the best or most effective way.
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Old 11-10-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: west central Georgia
2,240 posts, read 1,382,788 times
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You guys have made some wonderful suggestions and comments about the problem.
From my perspective, I've seen it all. I taught 34 years in mostly economically challenged schools. I was a reading specialist, but in public school that just means find the lowest 25% and try to raise their test scores. Sound familiar? I've used more programs that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars that were abandoned in 2 or 3 years for the next new thing in reading education. We learned everyone's learning styles and tried to teach to their advantage. But.......no phonics. Nah, why try something that works? It's boring and will hurt the 8th grader's self esteem. So anyway, my head spins when I think about all the things we did to encourage reading and nothing worked. We'd even let them read comic books or magazines after finishing class work; after all, it's still reading, right?
I think when neighborhood schools died is when learning became more difficult. This is a delicate issue, because it has to do with integration. When there's no commonality within the neighborhood, and some schools are perceived as more desirable, they we have a problem. Please don't jump on me for this, but I do think this is one of the most critical factors in the failure of the American school system.
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Old 11-10-2010, 01:39 PM
 
10,854 posts, read 9,285,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
We have got to do something about this. What are your thoughts?

NYT: Black education gap looks even bleaker* - U.S. news - The New York Times - msnbc.com
The percentage of Black Americans With bachelors degrees or graduate degrees over the age of 25

1960 - 3.06%
1970 - 4.39%
1980 - 8.36%
1990 - 11.37%
2000 - 14.3%
2010 - 18% (Estimated)

I'm more interested in the long term trend which is positive.
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