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Old 11-14-2010, 08:25 AM
 
465 posts, read 462,422 times
Reputation: 179

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Quote:
Originally Posted by azriverfan. View Post
And you know that how? What randomized double blind research studies show a large group that was studied over a decade or longer showing control groups and people using steroids on low dosages not having harmful effects on their bodies?

And Hormone Replacement Therapy is no longer the standard of care in post-menopausal women like it was in the pasts for a reason due to its risks of increasing heart disease, breast cancer and stroke. And the type of steroids you are referring to are much more potent than Pempro and other hormones that post-menopausal women take.

Hormone therapy: Is it right for you? - MayoClinic.com
Well yes, most of my knowledge is not scientifically proven. But i'm confident that I know the truth about this issue. I've been ito bodybuilding for 15 years, i've always lifted naturally, but i've learned a lot about steroids in my time.

I've never tried steroids But since i'm getting a bit older I might give it a whirl.

There are risks and I know the risks.

Anyway. The point of this thread in not "Are steroids harmful at all". The point of this thread is "Should steroids be illegal?"

A lot of people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that just because steroids can be harmful, they should be illegal. This is BS logic. And if we apllied this logic across the board then just about every drug would be illegal, from caffiene, to aspirin, to alcohol.

And don't get me started on the hypocricy of the pharmacuetical industry. Handing out adderal, ritalin, ambian and vicodin like it's candy, while steroids are illegal....... Mr. Physician, as soon as the medical industry in the USA acts honestly and respectably then i'll take your advice to heart a lot more.

As it is now. The medical industry in the USA is for profit and totally corrupt. And most "studies" have an ulterior motive. $$$$
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:34 AM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,252,514 times
Reputation: 10021
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalCroozer View Post
There are THOUSANDS of AIDS patients who are on anabolic steroids..........anavar, testosterone, nandrolone etc.........who without them would die.
I know plenty of Infectious Disease physicians and they don't have thousands of AIDS patients on anabolic steroids. I would love to know the source that claims thousands of AIDS patients are on anabolic steroids And by source, I'm asking for a reputable source not some sham weight lifting magazine or small weight lifting endorsed study. I do know of patients that are on them but in their cases, you weigh the risk vs reward. Yes, their conditions are so debilitating than in their cases, anabolic steroids are beneficial. But what you are talking about is completely different; you are endorsing their use in a chronic low dose format for healthy individuals which is an entirely different scenario. Your argument is weak; you are justifying their use by saying that their use in cachexic patients means it's okay to use in healthy people with no catabolic disorder. That's an asinine argument

Quote:
Their liver enzymes are perfect, their blood pressure is better than most.........and low and behold none of them are suffering any greater incidences of metabolic syndromes or diabetes than the regular population.
That's because these conditions don't occur overnight. We are talking about chronic long term use. By the time an HIV person is diagnosed with AIDS, they don't live beyond 1-2 years so of course they will not suffer from the long term metabolic derangements.


Quote:
Steroids are not like marijuana. They don't work unless you train and eat correctly. If used responsibly steroids are just as benign. And I'd rather look like a muscle hunk than some dopehead pot smoker with too much estrogen flowing through his veins.
And what do you think happens to that excess testosterone in your body? Your body converts that to estrogen which means you will develop gynecomastia and increased fat deposition with long term use.

Quote:
Abuse anything and you can die. I could shoot 3000mg of testosterone in one sitting and it won't kill me. I could take a bottle of Tylenol and it most definitely will kill me. Stick to what you know and leave steroids alone.........
We are discussing chronic low dose anabolic steroid use; we are not talking about anabolic steroid use in the short term (a matter of days). You are attempting to argue that long term low dose anabolic steroid use is not harmful. You can't just apply the broad theory of anything in small doses is okay which is what you are doing. You have to examine the drugs themselves and understand how they function in your body from a pathophysiological mechanism. Just because you've played around with steroids and the "small dose" theory makes sense to you on some intuitive scale, it doesn't mean you know the facts or are stating facts. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about and are simply playing doctor. Get educated before you decide to play with something you really know nothing about. Make an appointment with an Endocrinologist (physician specializing in hormones and metabolism) and ask about its use. An Endocrinologist is a physician who went to medical school for 4 years, did 3 years of internal medicine and a 2 year fellowship in endocrinology so it's safe to say they know more about this subject than you ever will.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:41 AM
 
465 posts, read 462,422 times
Reputation: 179
Or how about the kids in recovery clinics, juvenile halls and mental hospitals who are having anti-depressents shoved down their throats against their will, be treated as lab rats for these medicines?

How about the act that the medical industry constantly lobbies to keep weed illegal so that it can serve up much more harmful substances to people instead? Thus turning a profit?

That's a bit of a tangent. But i'm just illustrating that the entire medical industry is completely shady. Driven by money. A multi-billion dollar industry, that like every other industry of it's kind of driven by money, not the well-being of people.

Physicians and medical studies.... I'm very skeptical of both.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:42 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
12,350 posts, read 9,666,852 times
Reputation: 13891
Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadRefugee View Post
Well yes, most of my knowledge is not scientifically proven. But i'm confident that I know the truth about this issue. I've been ito bodybuilding for 15 years, i've always lifted naturally, but i've learned a lot about steroids in my time.

I've never tried steroids But since i'm getting a bit older I might give it a whirl.

There are risks and I know the risks.

Anyway. The point of this thread in not "Are steroids harmful at all". The point of this thread is "Should steroids be illegal?"

A lot of people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that just because steroids can be harmful, they should be illegal. This is BS logic. And if we apllied this logic across the board then just about every drug would be illegal, from caffiene, to aspirin, to alcohol.

And don't get me started on the hypocricy of the pharmacuetical industry. Handing out adderal, ritalin, ambian and vicodin like it's candy, while steroids are illegal....... Mr. Physician, as soon as the medical industry in the USA acts honestly and respectably then i'll take your advice to heart a lot more.

As it is now. The medical industry in the USA is for profit and totally corrupt.
And most "studies" have an ulterior motive. $$$$
That is absolutely correct. Nothing but drug pushers who have taken advantage of an entranced public to lie and lobby their way into favor. It is one of the saddest aspects of what we have become.
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Old 11-14-2010, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,869 posts, read 24,334,283 times
Reputation: 8672
Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadRefugee View Post
When I was a kid in the 80's most of my role models were on steroids.

Mark McGuire, Syslverster Stallone, Jose Canseco, Van Damme, Swartzenegger, Dolf Lundgren, Hulk Hogen, Macho Man.........

But I had absolutely ZERO idea that they were on steroids, I was totally naive about it. Kids don't know this stuff.

Now that everyone is talking about it. Kids probably know the truth about steroids. Otherwise they would just be oblivious to it.

As for high school athletes taking steroids. It's not smart for them to do it for sure. But this little drug war and propaganda campaign is probably barely going to put a dent in that problem.

Let's get realistic here. Is all this gonna stop or even slow down steroid use? I doubt it.
I had the same role models.

But what happens with role models, whether you believe it or not, is that you subconsciously get it in your head this is the way that you are supposed to look and behave. Later in life, then you have a since of self worth thats based on how you look and behave compared to those early role models.

So this leads to more guys taking steroids to "feel" like their child hood heroes looked.

Now I'm not so sure all of those guys you mentioned took steroids, but I don't know for sure.

The reason I see high school athletes taking them is so they can break into the majors, and then quit taking the steroids. This is because most high schools don't have steroid testing procedures. So they plan on taking it just long enough to get their break, then stop.

This has a negative effect on their physical development, and it also has the negative effect of hurting kids that would have been able to reach that level on their own without steroids.

Its like every kid in class is cheating, getting 99's on all of their tests, and you study hard and get 92's. Yeah, your grade is great, but if scholarships are limited, then should you cheat to get to the 99 or 100 level to make sure you get a shot?

I think the only way to limit the steroid use isn't illegality for adults, its to regulate it like we do everything else. You must be 25 or older to get them. For children, educate them on the issues that arise with steroid use. Not made up crap like they do with marijuana, but the real life side effects that are well known to science.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:01 AM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,252,514 times
Reputation: 10021
Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadRefugee View Post
How about the act that the medical industry constantly lobbies to keep weed illegal so that it can serve up much more harmful substances to people instead? Thus turning a profit?

That's a bit of a tangent. But i'm just illustrating that the entire medical industry is completely shady. Driven by money. A multi-billion dollar industry, that like every other industry of it's kind of driven by money, not the well-being of people.

Physicians and medical studies.... I'm very skeptical of both.
You aren't making any sense. Why would the pharmaceutical industry want anabolic steroids to be illegal? Who do you think manufactures these drugs? If anything, the pharmaceutical industry would love if anabolic steroids were legal as they would make a considerable profit from it.

And for that matter, why would physicians want steroids to be illegal? Do you know how much money physicians would make if steroids were legal and deemed safe by the FDA? Physicians could charge cash for their use like Botox and supplement their income and become rich.

I think guys like you love to trump up these conspiracy theories without thinking. The pharmaceutical and medical industry have the most to gain financially from steroids becoming legalized. The reason we don't hand them out is because they aren't safe and have long term risks with their use.

If you want to blame anyone for them being illegal, blame the legal industry in this country. All it takes is one person to be harmed by these drugs for them to bring a class action lawsuit against the pharmaceutical company that manufactures it and the doctors who prescribed it. Sure, make steroids legal and then watch the lawsuits fly forcing them to not be manufactured or prescribed any longer.

Last edited by azriverfan.; 11-14-2010 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:05 AM
 
2,732 posts, read 3,579,899 times
Reputation: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadRefugee View Post
As we can all see. For the past 6 or 7 years there has been an enormous media witchhunt against steroids.

In professional sports there has been a ridiculous campaign against them. The DEA has been making them more of a priority and going for bigger steroid busts.

The climax of it all might have been when in one of his state of the union addresses. George W. Bush said in his speech that we much crack down on steorids and performance enhancing drugs.

What is the point of all this? Have people forgotten that steroids were legal until the 1980's?

I guess the prison industry, pharmacetical industry, and DEA just need to make some more money.
I have no idea, especially when you figure alcohol, tobacco and even pharmaceutical drugs cause significantly more problems.

I say, the fair way to dispense steroids is for people to be over 25, and have taken a class to be able purchase it.

Regardless, just move out the states, it can be bought legally in other countries over the counter.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,531,162 times
Reputation: 14862
Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadRefugee View Post
Physicians and medical studies.... I'm very skeptical of both.
So you'd rather take advice on steroid use from weight lifting magazines, and saying the doctors have a hidden agenda? That's like asking a heroin addict if heroin is a dangerous drug!

This has to be one of the craziest medical conspiracy theory threads I have read in a while. Ask any person with severe asthma, or other medical condition that requires regualr use of steroids, and they will describe to you just how unpleasant they are, and that if they had a choice they would never take them again.

The other reason why steroids should never be OTC is the insiduous behavioral changes they induce. Anyone I have ever known who has taken them on the quiet is blissfully unaware of the behavioral changes taking place.
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:14 AM
 
Location: Geneva, IL
12,980 posts, read 14,531,162 times
Reputation: 14862
Quote:
Originally Posted by calicali01 View Post
I have no idea, especially when you figure alcohol, tobacco and even pharmaceutical drugs cause significantly more problems.
That is absolutely not true. A very dangerous statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calicali01 View Post
I say, the fair way to dispense steroids is for people to be over 25, and have taken a class to be able purchase it.
Why? There is plenty of information out there. People just ignore it, or don't believe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by calicali01 View Post
Regardless, just move out the states, it can be bought legally in other countries over the counter.
Another very dangerous statement. There have been countless deaths caused by people buying steroids in Mexico.

Last edited by Zimbochick; 11-14-2010 at 09:25 AM..
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Old 11-14-2010, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Lewes, Delaware
3,490 posts, read 3,780,786 times
Reputation: 1953
Quote:
Originally Posted by NomadRefugee View Post
Well yes, most of my knowledge is not scientifically proven. But i'm confident that I know the truth about this issue. I've been ito bodybuilding for 15 years, i've always lifted naturally, but i've learned a lot about steroids in my time.

I've never tried steroids But since i'm getting a bit older I might give it a whirl.

There are risks and I know the risks.

Anyway. The point of this thread in not "Are steroids harmful at all". The point of this thread is "Should steroids be illegal?"

A lot of people seem to be jumping to the conclusion that just because steroids can be harmful, they should be illegal. This is BS logic. And if we apllied this logic across the board then just about every drug would be illegal, from caffiene, to aspirin, to alcohol.

And don't get me started on the hypocricy of the pharmacuetical industry. Handing out adderal, ritalin, ambian and vicodin like it's candy, while steroids are illegal....... Mr. Physician, as soon as the medical industry in the USA acts honestly and respectably then i'll take your advice to heart a lot more.

As it is now. The medical industry in the USA is for profit and totally corrupt. And most "studies" have an ulterior motive. $$$$
I don't think steroids should be illegal except for sports. An MLB or NFL player should have a choice of what he wants to put in his body, and that choice shouldn't be made by a lesser athlete like Sosa, Mcgwire,Canseco,or even Romanowski. I can't include Bonds since he was a Hall of Famer without them. Guys in the minors or on the bench never had a chance with these guys taking steroids and or HGH. Look no further than Canseco to see the side effects of abusing steroids.
Everyday life, lifting weights, bodybuilding competitions, bench press competitions, Guys know who are doing roids and who aren't. So who cares, in moderation, dbol and deca probably won't have long term effects so long as they're stacked right and not cycled for 12 months. I've found that bodybuilders know their body better than doctors anyway. John Doe taking steroids to improve himself physically is better than his cousin Jake Doe smoking two packs of Reds and drinking half a bottle Tequila everday.

Personally, now in my late 30s with wife and kids Winstrol won't destroy my liver although beer might.

If I was 15 or 18 years younger or even now if was still competing HGH would be my choice not steroids.
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