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Unions are very essential for workers and our whole society, I don't want to imagine what would happen without them.
Anyway, the question is not how could we compete with China regarding the price - there are many other factors that might be of importance. What about quality? What about productiveness? (With the right equipment like robots, American workers could do more work in an hour than Chinese do on a day), What about technology leadership and research? If we can't be cheaper, we just must be better.
As maschuette said, most jobs nowadays are in service. Banking or insurance jobs are unlikely to be outsourced. The road worker or construction worker also has a very safe job, unless they want to import whole skyscrapers or interstates from China.
Anything related to food will also never by made in China, as long it has to be fresh.
I don't think the guy from McDonalds or the road worker will lose his job when organized in a union, it may be just the corporation will earn less money.
And don't forget unions are not all about money. Safe jobs, good working atmosphere, respect of labor law and conditions and safety at workplace often count more than $.25 more per an hour.
You make good points about safety but i dont see that to be as much of a problem today as it was when unions were started. But, you may be right, and we may slip backward without unions. But the problem with unions is that they dont seem to care about the business they are working for. Examples: i had two factories in my home town that made cabinets. One had unions and other didnt. The one with unions were on strike ever 6 months and eventually they went out of business. How is that good for employees? The other factory is still operating. They only pay their people 9$ an hour while the unions were wanting 15+, but people dont realize how much labor really amounts to when running a business. Another example: My dad has a rich buddy from texas who bought a slaughterhouse. After he bought it they were going to have their vote to unionize. Before they did my Dads buddy stood up in front of everybody and said, "the last two people who owned this place when bankrupt after you guys unionized. If you want to unionize then thats fine. You can make good money for 6 months, but then this place will go broke and you'll be out of the job." They didnt unionize and are still operating.
High end merchandise is one place many American companies can still compete but as I often point out the American consumer buys junk. You could for example get a Chinese made wood pellet stove from one of the home stores for about $800. A comparative model, and I use the term comparative loosely, from Harman which is American product is going to run you at least double that. The difference of course is the Harman product will last for decades.
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unless they want to import whole skyscrapers or interstates from China.
This is not unthinkable, fabrication and the production of the materials needed for projects like this could go overseas especially if new regulation limit CO2 emissions. The cement industry in particular would see a significant rise in costs associated with such legislation as would the steel industry.
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I don't think the guy from McDonalds or the road worker will lose his job when organized in a union, it may be just the corporation will earn less money.
No, you the consumer pays more for the product.
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Safe jobs, good working atmosphere, respect of labor law and conditions and safety at workplace often count more than $.25 more per an hour.
While this may have been point many years ago it's not such a big factor now.
i say this about our union it was a life saver for me that night ..for i had not went to a local women union rep i went to that night i would have been fired over a socalled sexural remarks that did not happen ..she went over everyone head and saight to our head of the union along with the owner of the company.
she also had bought up to the head of the union that the person had done this four times before and had people fired from the company over her saying things that happened off work and away from the job site and the head of the H.R.for the casino had not fired her for false reports of sexual remarks that did not happen in the first place ..
I keep hearing and reading (especially on here) how unions are bad and should be gone. Me thinks the people who believe this are one's who wish they had a union job. I can't be far off on this. Why are unions so terrible?
Do some research on Ford and GM and the effects that the unions had on these companies. I'll give you the short version. During the years that Ford and GM were making money they were very dependent on the manual work force. So much so that the unions recognized this and negotiated contracts with clauses in them that no company today would ever consider. Extremely high pay for the labor type, vacation and benefits packages that were in excess of anything you will see today and little ditty's such as a "job bank". Now, remember the "job bank". So, because Ford and GM needed the labor and robotic's were in their infancy they agreed to all the extra's in the contracts because they could not afford a work stoppage. Over time, robotics became more and more capable of handling the jobs of the union laborer. Instead of the laborers educating themselves to be able to run, program, build and maintain the robotics they continued to work under existing contracts with all the bennie's. Now, as the jobs were taken over by machines the workers were placed into the "Job Bank". These "banks" that were negotiated into the contracts were places for "laid off" workers to go, play cards, watch movies and get paid their normal hourly rate. Yes, you read that right. The "job bank" assured that workers would not loose their jobs regardless if there was a need for their labor or not. So, Ford and GM racked up HUGE liabilities by having "laid" off workers in the "job bank" while machines took over. By the union taking advantage of the situation they almost took Ford and GM down. Ford got smart and eliminated these Job Banks and all the other unacceptable items in the union contracts or it would have taken them down no doubt.. That is why Ford is making money today. They took a huge financial hit to rid themselves of the union deals and re-engineered themselves into a profitable car maker. GM, not so much but they are also guilty of a lack of innovation and poor leadership but that is another story. Steve Miller who tried to engineer Delphi's future made the comment that they can not continue to pay someone $65.00 and keep a company profitable. I agree, nobody bolting a fender on a car or truck is worth $65.00 an hour.
So, while I certainly agree that leadership in these two companies contributed to what happened, the unions were just as if not more guilty of their demise..
I have to chuckle when I hear people talk about how "rich people" rape and pillage at the expense of the little people when the unions are probably much worse.
In today's global economy, like it or not, unions are a thing of the past and will eventually take a company down if the members are not sensitive to the markets they serve..
I keep hearing and reading (especially on here) how unions are bad and should be gone. Me thinks the people who believe this are one's who wish they had a union job. I can't be far off on this. Why are unions so terrible?
For stupid and lazy people, unions are a good thing. For those who are intelligent and motivated, unions suck.
I can work as hard as I want, or do nothing for 8 hours, and at the end of the day, it doesn't matter, because they union has already determined my raises for me.
In a non-union environment, I can get a raise up to $2.50/hour while those who are lazy an incompetent get the $0.10 raise they deserve.
Also, I take offense that someone negotiates my benefits for me. I don't need "health insurance" so there's no point in having it as a benefit, and thanks to the idiot unions, I cannot negotiate any alternative, like higher wages, or tuition reimbursement, or extra vacation days.
When the president of Local 1099 retired, he got a decked out Lincoln Continental and a VISA Gold Card with a $50,000 credit limit and the union pays the bill. What would I get? Absolutely nothing.
I don't think my union dues should be paying for cars or VISA Gold Cards.
I've always made more money in non-union jobs and had better benefits, plus I didn't have to worry about unions spending my dues on political advertising or lobbyists or bribing government officials.
The unions are still run and controlled by organized crime, so I don't like the morality or ethics of it either.
US workers are not going to come out on top or even in the middle in this new global workplace.
The same work can be done in another country for a fraction of the cost.
Our only saving grace that I can see is oil spiking to the point where mfg + shipping equates to making it here. Then that hurts us at the pump.
Nevermind China..companies are now in Vietnam and Malaysia because workers in those countries are even cheaper than China
I've seen a lot of sensible posts from you here, but I must reaspectfully disagree with this one.
Some countries are dealing with the global workplace quite well. Germany, Norway, Nederlands, etc. Countries with higher wages on the shop floor and way higher rates of unionization. I suspect the problem is more in how unions work in America.
(And how the middle class seems to be so squeezed that middle-class driven consumption may drop off a cliff soon.)
I keep hearing and reading (especially on here) how unions are bad and should be gone. Me thinks the people who believe this are one's who wish they had a union job. I can't be far off on this. Why are unions so terrible?
That's nonsense. I work in manufacturing. I work in a non-union shop. I've visited plenty of union shops. Unions take away freedom of choice from the members. They also take away their money. And if they often lead to high unemployment because they demand way more than what they are worth.
I would never, under any circumsatnces, work in a union job.
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Originally Posted by maschuette
Labor is the highest cost that businesses have to deal with. Unions basically set their own pay, which is really high (go figure). This is not about jobs going over seas, there isnt much that can be done about that. Service work makes up something like 70% of jobs in America, which cant be outsourced. If you want to really know how much unions affect the economy than look at California, or General Motors. It is unsustainable.
No, unions do not set their own pay, they negotiate a contract which is agreed to by management, management which these days is very often bloated, incompetent, and has reached levels of greed never even dreamed of by the unions.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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Originally Posted by HappyTexan
Companies are not able to compete in the global marketplace.
Labor costs are much higher than other countries.
Boeing just lost airplane bids to a China company. GE is buying airplanes from China, not Boeing.
Care to compare management costs, China vs. US, or would that be taking too much of a look at the whole story and fall too far away from the anti-union position?
For someone with a strong work ethic and a team-first attitude, unions are the absolute worst.
I'm a low-level manager in a union shop (also a member of a low-level management union. I am forced to pay union dues by state law). I love it when I attempt to help a customer by carrying a box, and the union steward complains that I'm not allowed to "take his work."
I don't care what anyone says. Unions create an "us vs. them" mentality between management and labor that is not productive at all.
I come from a background of "get the job done, it doesn't matter who does it or how it gets done." This was the attitude at my family's business, which I unfortunately didn't have the opportunity to work for. It was all about the Protestant work ethic. They were all on the same team and had the same goal.
My first experience in a union environment was a rude awakening. I would think, "are these people for real? Are they really this selfish?"
Work should be about selflessness and a team approach. Unions allow the worst part of human nature, the "me-first" attitude, to take over.
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