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Old 12-02-2010, 11:17 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,992,474 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
See? They don't get it.
I understand why so many dont get it, its because so many americans receive a check, they spend their check, they file taxes yearly on their checks etc..

These people have no idea what its like to make year long investment and have it grow tax free because many of them are used to putting money into CD's and other short term investments which might last 6 months to a year.

They cant comprehend someone putting money into an investment for 10 or 20 years, (and I've heard of some being 100+ years) that will grow tax free, and when that period of time is up they can choose to cash in their profits or roll them over into another 10-20 year period tax free. And since these are often held in trusts, and trusteeships can be transferred rather easily and rolled over from generation to generation.

What many of them fail to understand is that if these investments mature during the low period of taxes, these investments will get cashed out because of the requirements put into place to qualify to roll them over, and therefor become subject to federal income taxes. If they mature in high tax periods, then the effort to roll them over are worth the trouble because we're talking millions and millions of dollars in taxes owed. They cant imagine being able to choose between cashing out an investment and paying $5M in taxes, or rolling them over and paying zero because they have never been put into this situation..

If these people continue to ask for higher taxes, this rollover will continue and the rich will get richer, the tax revenue will continue to drop, the middle class will continue to shrink and need to be taxed more, and the national deficits will continue to climb as everyone needs to cover the tax revenues which should be coming in but arent.

I got into one of these investments last year for example that will generate about $4.5M of wealth over 15 years which will grow tax free. When this 15 years is up I can roll this over into a new investment which will grow more, or I can choose to pay taxes on it. (and since it was $0 down, the taxes owed will be substantial) Its these very people shouting for higher taxes which we can blame for the rich getting wealthier and paying less of the tax burdeon and they dont even understand why. If they get their wish for a very high tax rate I'll simply pay no taxes and roll the investment over again.. If they dont get their wish, I'll cash out the investment, pay my taxes owed and spend the profits, thereby boosting the economy.

In 2 years when I sell my internet company, I'll have to make the same choice. Will I take the $1M or so and invest it, thereby taking 10 years of hard work, living tax free and reinvest it into long term wealth growth, or will I take this "profit", pay taxes, and then live from it boosting the economy.. Well thats up to liberals, its their choice. My spending/investing habbits will change based upon what they do. They can either choose to give me a low tax rate to allow me to cash out and pay taxes, or they can give me a high tax rate giving me no choice but to roll this investment over to my children until the tax rates are more reasonable..

Last edited by pghquest; 12-02-2010 at 11:38 AM..
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Old 12-02-2010, 11:58 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,163 posts, read 5,031,517 times
Reputation: 4208
there is very solid historical evidence to support the notion taxes on the rich, around the 50% level (like Reagan's first term), is a good reference that leads not only to the rich getting richer, and the economy running just fine, but it provides stability.

so look at us now... geez... they are ready to scream class warfare when we're talking about 39.5% (the rate during the '90s, which we proved worked just fine).

39.5% STILL ALLOWS THEM TO GET RICHER AT A FASTER RATE THAN EVER BEFORE.

they don't accept the simple math of what it takes to help pay down the debt and also keep their lavish lifestyles. it is a phenomenal level of greed. the fact that they behave this way... BY DEFINITION... can only be characterized as anti-American. I can't see it any other way.

with a tax rate TOO LOW on the upper echelon, we are "PENALIZING THE ABILITY TO BE SUCCESSFUL".

what, you say ?

yes, without a solid middle class, giving just the upper 2% the means to suck that much more money to the top, actually penalizes the ability for those striving to reach the top, to actually make it to the top.

for every business that is successful, the vast majority do not make it. many fall by the wayside. statistically, it is evident that only a small percentage rise to the top. but here, in our ultra-competitive free market society, we have people constantly scratching and clawing to come to the top.

by providing for solid wealth and potential in the MIDDLE CLASS... we provide an environment from which our future most successful people will rise.

read that again if you don't get it... this is the entire point of it all.

our country has, historically, only been a giant force of economic potential because of its solid middle class, not because of the upper 2%. a lively discussion recently on the McLaughlin Show addressed just this point -- the overwhelming consensus, and facts presented, was that in this present day and age the fact that we "grow billionaires" is no measure of U.S. economic power or success.

middle-class health and power is the factory from which all the success comes. we need an environment that fosters the creation of small businesses, and other business endeavors, that successfully compete with those at the top.

HELL... IT KEEPS THEM ON THEIR TOES AND IT CREATES POTENTIAL NEW MARKETS !!!

the way it is going, the upper 2% are becoming insulated and willing to exploit markets so selfishly, and for their own benefits, and with strategies that keep them in business, at the expense of our whole country -- and others... there's nothing stopping that level of force that comes from that level of money... whether it's moving manufacturing out of the U.S. ,
or other behaviors that do not favor the formation of a very strong and prosperous middle class.

it is from those humble and prosperous middle class homes that may come the next generation of entrepreneurs. or would tea partiers prefer that we limit those that rise to the top to a select few percentage that have come from those families at the top... the only
families that might ultimately be capable of paying for the colleges, and the possible risk capital, that it might take to form such successful businesses ?

have a carefully insulated, select bunch of rich people, from which most of the business endeavors and money are controlled ?

we are becoming a country of entrenched mega-businesses, surrounded by elitists that want to make money off these enterprises... because it is the most successful safe haven to make this type of money. that is how they are capable of averaging this astounding 15% on their money over all these years. the 15% figure is not necessarily a measure of business success, bringing good products to the U.S., or sustaining a health business environment
that the US can take into the future. it means... pure and simple... that they made 15% on their money.

but does this overall business model work for the U.S. ? does it take us competitively into the future ? does supporting Big Oil, mega-inefficient health care industries, exploitative pharmaceuticals, and other monolithic insurance services, take America into the future ?

those that have risen to the top deserve to be wealthy, but we can literally skim off some of that money, help pay down the debt, and foster a solid middle class -- from which the next, most successful businesses, may rise.
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,157 posts, read 19,397,646 times
Reputation: 5284
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secchamps98 View Post
And what about the 3 Trillion in lost revenue for the Middle calss tax cuts, lost revenue? That is much more than the 700 Billion........what does pain have to do with this? This has to do with me not wanting to use my money to subsidize social services for those unwilling to pay for it themselves. I really don't don't think my paying extra in taxes wll go toward the debt, but will allow for politicians to spend more on pet projects.....
The rich get most of those cuts as well, they get another $700 billion on top of that. That is what is being objected to.``
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,157 posts, read 19,397,646 times
Reputation: 5284
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Because there was no $700B in lost revenue...

Cutting taxes RAISED revenues, it DOUBLED capital gains taxes.. Why would you want to lower revenue again and 1/2 the taxes paid by the rich by increasing their tax rate again?
The revenue dropped the first few years, it then did increase slightly. However, it had the lowest increase in revenue in decades.
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,431,094 times
Reputation: 9618
either extend the tax cuts FOR ALL...or let them expire FOR ALL

when will the liberals stop with this direct DISCRIMINATION and CLASSWARFARE from them
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
22,157 posts, read 19,397,646 times
Reputation: 5284
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
either extend the tax cuts FOR ALL...or let them expire FOR ALL

when will the liberals stop with this direct DISCRIMINATION and CLASSWARFARE from them
Its the Republicans playing the class warfare game by holding the bottom 98% hostage to give the top 2% what they want. Technically the top 2% will still get the cuts extended, as the portions of the tax break under the $250,000 mark will continue. For example a married couple with two kids making $300,000 taking the standard deduction will actually get a little over 91% of their tax cut. That same family making $300,000 that chooses to itemize deductions with $15,000 in property taxes and another $15,000 in other itemized deductions such as mortgage interest, will keep their entire tax cut.
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Marion, IA
2,793 posts, read 6,113,306 times
Reputation: 1613
So, if I understand all the liberals, letting the "rich" ($250k) keep their tax cuts will put the economy in the shtter.

But taking the money from the rich and dumping it into the government will lift us out of the recession.... how does that work?
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:28 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,431,094 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255 View Post
Its the Republicans playing the class warfare game by holding the bottom 98% hostage to give the top 2% what they want. Technically the top 2% will still get the cuts extended, as the portions of the tax break under the $250,000 mark will continue. For example a married couple with two kids making $300,000 taking the standard deduction will actually get a little over 91% of their tax cut.
91% is still less than 100% or more than 0%

the FACT is that the liberals keep screaming "tax the rich" that is class war fare..that is DISCRIMINATION

either extend (make permanent) FOR ALL, or let expire FOR ALL......or even better get rid of the income tax all together, and bring the more fairer consumption tax


its the liberals holding the rest of us hostage with their witch hunt for the infamous "top 2%"
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:31 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,431,094 times
Reputation: 9618
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4guy View Post
So, if I understand all the liberals, letting the "rich" ($250k) keep their tax cuts will put the economy in the shtter.

But taking the money from the rich and dumping it into the government will lift us out of the recession.... how does that work?
it wont

increasing the taxes will add (might) about 70 billion a year (as the cbo put it at BEST 700 billion in a ten year span) mean while the state department just promased over 30 billion to GIVE to pakistan...and the liberals want the USA to give nearly 1/2 trillion to the IMF (International Monetary Fund )(to support europe) on top of the 100 billion that congress approved to give to the IMF back in May of 2009 and obama signing in in June of 2009


CUT THE SPENDING

Last edited by workingclasshero; 12-02-2010 at 12:41 PM..
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Old 12-02-2010, 12:31 PM
 
Location: NC
1,672 posts, read 1,767,461 times
Reputation: 524
Quote:
Originally Posted by zz4guy View Post
Seems like an easy solution. Take one for the team and ****. What do the Democrats have to gain by stalling? Make the tax cuts permanent and they could move on to their favorite issues like gays in the military and the dream act.
That, by definition, is not a compromise. That is "caving in" as they meet the other parties demands 100%.

Compromising would be like Dems and Reps coming together and say extend it for everyone making less then $500K-1 million for 2-3 years. This is what I would support as an independent. The job creation arguement after those salary levels is very shallow, to almost a point of being false if not even the opposite(job destroying). Reason is at those levels you invest your salary heavily to get maximum return and a "smart" investment will invest heavily outside the U.S. now.

Perm. Tax Extension is ludicrious. At some point the whole tax cut for all may need to go away (hopefully with Tax Reform to go with it).
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