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Old 12-08-2010, 10:25 AM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,126,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaBMe View Post
Did you read the post I was responding to? It said that reading about different religions/cultures in schools was a good thing because it teaches kids to learn to "respect" other peoples cultures. If that was his/her justification for including the wine guzzling socialist Jesus Christ book it fails poorly. Does it present an "alternative point of view" of Jesus? Most definitely. Does it belong in public schools because it is "Free speech?" Not if you are of the belief that there is or should be a separation of Church and State.
I'm just fine presenting the alternate points of view and letting the kids figure out what they want to respect or not.

I do not expect that "respect" would be the only justification for using the materal, nor should it be.

There is no reason that Christianity should be held immunue from criticism or debate in public schools, as long as the Free Exercise and Establishment clauses are respected. I do not see how presenting such material violates either.

Plus, I'm pretty sure Jesus really was a wine-guzzling socialist hippie anyway. And I'm a Methodist.
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Old 12-08-2010, 10:57 AM
 
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Jesus wasn't a wine-guzzling socialist hippie. He wasn't even a garden-variety schizophrenic.

The fact is, there is absolutely no reference to him outside of the Christian Bible. Most probably, he never existed.
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Old 12-08-2010, 11:31 AM
 
1,476 posts, read 2,023,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strel View Post
I'm just fine presenting the alternate points of view and letting the kids figure out what they want to respect or not.

I do not expect that "respect" would be the only justification for using the materal, nor should it be.

There is no reason that Christianity should be held immunue from criticism or debate in public schools, as long as the Free Exercise and Establishment clauses are respected. I do not see how presenting such material violates either.

Plus, I'm pretty sure Jesus really was a wine-guzzling socialist hippie anyway. And I'm a Methodist.
Then you are in disagreement or defiance of the ACLU's stance; i.e., "The school...may not promote or denigrate any religion."
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaBMe View Post
Then you are in disagreement or defiance of the ACLU's stance; i.e., "The school...may not promote or denigrate any religion."
I don't know what the ACLU's stance is and it would depend on how the text is being used.

The school certainly cannot PROMOTE religion, but I am unaware of any prohibition on the latter. If that were the standard then we couldn't teach anything, since there will always be some fundamentalist wacko that would insist their irrational beliefs are being denigrated by teaching science, history and logical reasoning.
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:23 PM
 
Location: The Bay
6,914 posts, read 14,743,454 times
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There's a reason why the church and state are separated... who in their right mind would actually teach faith as an educational course? The Bible itself is an extremely deep symbolical read and the way it teaches some of its morals (and some of the morals themselves) are very interesting. That being said, faith-based teaching is retarded and in some schools causes them to throw out evolution all-together. You are doing a DISSERVICE to these kids by teaching them in faith and not analyzing it... the thread topic counts as analyzing The New Testament. Whether or not the analyzation of the bible is accurate is up to the students to decide... there's a reason why students should read other POVs. Or is this bad because it "blasphemes" against Jesus? What is this, the 17th century?
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strel View Post
I don't know what the ACLU's stance is and it would depend on how the text is being used.

The school certainly cannot PROMOTE religion, but I am unaware of any prohibition on the latter. If that were the standard then we couldn't teach anything, since there will always be some fundamentalist wacko that would insist their irrational beliefs are being denigrated by teaching science, history and logical reasoning.
Here is the ACLU's "stance," which as much as I don't like this organization, I think sounds pretty reasonable. Can't preach the Bible in school & can't denigrate it either. You can't pick and choose. The school can easily find another book that doesn't include offensive references to some students' religion.

Statement on The Bible in Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide | American Civil Liberties Union




Statement on The Bible in Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide | American Civil Liberties Union
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:52 PM
 
7,871 posts, read 10,126,178 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GottaBMe View Post
Here is the ACLU's "stance," which as much as I don't like this organization, I think sounds pretty reasonable. Can't preach the Bible in school & can't denigrate it either. You can't pick and choose. The school can easily find another book that doesn't include offensive references to some students' religion.

Statement on The Bible in Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide | American Civil Liberties Union




Statement on The Bible in Public Schools: A First Amendment Guide | American Civil Liberties Union
Well then I hope the crowd that rails against the ACLU and calls them atheistic commies will appreciate that the ACLU is just as passionate about the Free Exercise clause as they are about the Establishment clause.

But I doubt they will appreciate it, despite....The ACLU Fights for Christians
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,297 posts, read 120,685,448 times
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While "guzzling" is a bit of a pejorative term, it is certainly documented that Jesus drank wine. His being a socialist is a matter of opinion; he was known to say "my kingdom is not of this world".
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:22 PM
 
1,476 posts, read 2,023,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Strel View Post
Well then I hope the crowd that rails against the ACLU and calls them atheistic commies will appreciate that the ACLU is just as passionate about the Free Exercise clause as they are about the Establishment clause.

But I doubt they will appreciate it, despite....The ACLU Fights for Christians
Well then I hope that you will finally agree that this book does not belong in the public school class.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:29 PM
 
1,476 posts, read 2,023,965 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
While "guzzling" is a bit of a pejorative term, it is certainly documented that Jesus drank wine. His being a socialist is a matter of opinion; he was known to say "my kingdom is not of this world".
And since "guzzling" is as you state a "pejorative" term; i.e., "belittling," "disparaging," "expressing disapproval," and in general "having negative connotations," per Merriam-Webster's Dictionary, then it follows that the ACLU, themself and you, yourself would agree that this book does not belong in the public school. (In case you missed the quote or link above, the ACLU's stance is that a "school may educate about all religions, but may NOT promote OR denigrate any religion.")
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