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I'm not saying that all homosexuals decide to be that way. But I am saying that SOME choose it. And still others are made that way by abusive childhoods. (In fact, I've never met a homosexual who did not have a traumatic childhood. That's quite interesting to me, but not 100% conclusive, since I'm not omnipotent.)
I suppose some bi-sexuals certainly choose to follow their homosexual attractions rather than theor heterosexual ones - but that doesn't mean they are homosexual.
Personally, I've met 100's of gays and lesbians who were not sexually abused as children or had a "traumatic childhood". I've also met some that were sexually abused, but this doen't mean it "caused" them to be homosexual. Considering the statistics of sexual abuse in general, it would be surprising if some of them weren't abused as children -as so many heterosexuals were. Many gays and lesbians have also experienced a difficult time as teenagers because of the stigmatization of homosexuality.
There is no evidence to show that homosexuals are "made that way" by abusive childhoods. That's one of the myths that the anti-gay-religious-right like to fling about with gay abandon.
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MYTH # 3 People become homosexual because they were sexually abused as children or there was a deficiency in sex-role modeling by their parents.
THE ARGUMENT
Many anti-gay rights proponents claim that homosexuality is a mental disorder caused by some psychological trauma or aberration in childhood. This argument is used to counter the common observation that no one, gay or straight, consciously chooses his or her sexual orientation. Joseph Nicolosi, a founder of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, said in 2009 that “if you traumatize a child in a particular way, you will create a homosexual condition.” He also has repeatedly said, “Fathers, if you don’t hug your sons, some other man will.” A side effect of this argument is the demonization of parents of homosexuals, who are led to wonder if they failed to protect a child against sexual abuse or failed as role models in some important way. In October 2010, Kansas State University family studies professor Walter Schumm said he was about to release a related study arguing that homosexual couples are more likely than heterosexuals to raise gay or lesbian children.
THE FACTS
No scientifically sound study has linked sexual orientation or identity with parental role-modeling or childhood sexual abuse.
The American Psychiatric Association noted in a 2000 fact sheet on gay, lesbian and bisexual issues that “no specific psychosocial or family dynamic cause for homosexuality has been identified, including histories of childhood sexual abuse.” The fact sheet goes on to say that sexual abuse does not appear to be any more prevalent among children who grow up and identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual than in children who grow up and identify as heterosexual.
Similarly, the National Organization on Male Sexual Victimization notes on its website that “experts in the human sexuality field do not believe that premature sexual experiences play a significant role in late adolescent or adult sexual orientation” and added that it’s unlikely that someone can make another person a homosexual or heterosexual.
If that's true, and if it's true that the reason we have more gay men showing up today is because they are coming out of the closet and "marrying" men today instead of succumbing to pressure to marry a woman, then what about the gay men 100 years ago? Was life so horrible for those men who were "forced" through social pressure to marry women in the past?
I admit my ignorance on this issue, but I don't remember seeing any indication of this. How many books were written in the 60s by oppressed gay men who were forced to live a lie? Any movies? Newspaper articles? Journal entries? Diaries? Any stories at all? I keep hearing about how oppressed they were in the past but if that were true, you'd think one of them would have written something about it, at least in a diary.
I'm not saying that there wasn't oppression. Clearly there was. The movie Milk documented one such individual who went through oppression, but he was going public. But if there was so much of this type of oppression... pressuring gay men to marry women... if it was as widespread as is indicated, then why wasn't there more complaining about it? Have we found hundreds or thousands of diaries written by gay men who didn't like being married to a woman? Even one? Surely there must be one.
You do realise that homosexual behaviour was a criminal offence?
Do you think all these people in the past would be writing down what could be used as evidence against them?
Funny how people are measuring now, vs. fifty years ago . . .what about going back to the beginning of time - there should be lots of evidence on the pure incidence of homosexuality in the species . . . in the beginning, there were no rules, no prohibitions, no pre-conceived notions of morality . . . did cave men get it on with each other? What about cave women? The incidence of homosexuality in primitive societies should indicate what is "natural" for the human species, at least in terms of biology.
I suppose someone could become gay for political or psychological reasons . . .
Read this for the REAL facts : Homosexual behavior increases risk of AIDS - Dr. Brian J. Kopp, DPM . 75-85 percent of AIDS are linked specifically to Homosexuals. Center for Disease Control interviewed a broad spectrum of practicing homosexuals and it was found that the average person had over 500 partners in their lifetime.
Many THOUSANDS have came out of the homosexual lifestyle which proves your assertion that theyre stuck in it, incorrect and appauling. There are many now enjoying the freedom from living sexually deviant in homosexuality as well as heterosexually . The help is readily available for any homosexual who wants to exit the dangerous lifestyle including organizations that specialize in it (go online) . books specifically designed to help the person overcome such as Coming Out of Homosexuality: Bob Davies, Lori Rentzel: 9780830816538: Christianbook.com , in conjunction with the very power of God whom many have testified about. I would list atheist/humanist sources except I know of none due to their 'enjoy it while you can' apathetic attitude instead of having the spine to share the real truth behind the homosexual epidemic facts and to lovingly encourage them to seek help professionally as well as embarking on a real dynamic personal relationship with Christ involving complete forgiveness and healing victory. Homosexuality is a sin like any other sin and there is real hope for those who want the liberation .
Why did you choose a Catholic website? Considering the fact that the Catholic Church played a big part in the spread of HIV amongst heterosexuals in places like Africa because of their ignorant dogmatic stance on the use of condoms.... well....
Still haven't read those WHO links I provided?
And you keep ignoring the fact that all the major professional health organizations warn against "pray away the gay therapy" as unethical. ineffective and quite harmful?
You're not apathetic about the facts....you're actually quite "anti-fact". Not surprising given your "anti-evidence" and "anti-science" stance. That's what bigotry does to you, especially religious bigotry.
We do not have a time machine and cannot go back and interview a caveman.
There are a couple of real troglodytes here in this forum, though!
However there are plenty of anthropological studies done by ethnographers in the field that have observed homosexual relationships in societies in extremely remote places and very "primitive" communities. There were two anthropologists named Ford and Beach that did a terrific study back in the '50's or '60's and of course there is Margaret Meade and her studies in New Guinea.
A little more recent are a couple of books on homosexual relationships in pristine tribal societies, having had no contact with the outside world:
Tobias Schneebaum. ""Where The Spirits Dwell" . (I heard this professor lecture at New York University, he is great! He showed us slides of 'married' male couples of the Asmat tribe of New Guinea who had been together 25, 30, 35 or more years which was extraordinary because these people usually don't live past 45 or 50.)
Gilbert H. Herdt. "Guardians Of The Flutes". In this tribal society, the Sambia, all young men are required to have male sexual partners for several years before they can marry a female. Although the anthropologist could not penetrate the secrecy of the female societies, evidence points that a lesbian relationship is required as well. Now, what is really interesting is that amongst the Sambia, some male couples refuse to transition into heterosexual relationships, they stay in same sex relationships but although in the minority they are accepted by others in their society.
If that's true, and if it's true that the reason we have more gay men showing up today is because they are coming out of the closet and "marrying" men today instead of succumbing to pressure to marry a woman, then what about the gay men 100 years ago? Was life so horrible for those men who were "forced" through social pressure to marry women in the past?.
I strongly suspect the answer to your question is: YES. Homosexuality has been suppressed for centuries, just as women were considered property in European legal systems for centuries.
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Originally Posted by smartalx
I admit my ignorance on this issue, but I don't remember seeing any indication of this. How many books were written in the 60s by oppressed gay men who were forced to live a lie? Any movies? Newspaper articles? Journal entries? Diaries? Any stories at all? I keep hearing about how oppressed they were in the past but if that were true, you'd think one of them would have written something about it, at least in a diary..
well, first off...you have to realize stuff like that would just never have been published. Second, you really don't understand (and even I don't to be honest) how deep the many layers of repression go You can be sure it was even worse in the past.
I'll give you an example. A friend of mine, who is 58, grew up in rural Utah. He did not even know what gay was when he was growing up! His (now ex) wife actually figured out he was gay before he did. So, I can only imagine the level of ignorance/repression a century ago. I think there have been many gay men through the ages who knew something wasn't right but couldn't put their fingers on what was wrong....like an itch they couldn't scratch. There are also a lot of gay men out there who have sex with men (like former Senator Larry Craig from ID) who will say they're not gay (and they really believe this, too!). I, personally, can't comprehend this level of repression, but I have seen it a lot and still see it.
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Originally Posted by smartalx
I'm not saying that there wasn't oppression. Clearly there was. The movie Milk documented one such individual who went through oppression, but he was going public. But if there was so much of this type of oppression... pressuring gay men to marry women... if it was as widespread as is indicated, then why wasn't there more complaining about it? Have we found hundreds or thousands of diaries written by gay men who didn't like being married to a woman? Even one? Surely there must be one.
No, not necessarily. To write about ones attraction to men in a diary is to admit you're gay. Most gay men who don't want to admit it are paranoid of leaving evidence ofany kind! You don't understand the level of shame and repression that exists for gay men. It's shockingly deep. I am gay, and I personlly can't comprehend it, except as an intellectual exercise. It's just that I've come in contact with enough gay men who did the marriage & kids thing that I have a better understanding.
To give you another example, 2 weekends ago, I met my boyfriend's mom for the first time. (She lives out of state). Everyone in my boyfriend's family knows he's gay but no one talks about it or uses the word. I have another gay friend like that, too. It's a "Don't ask, don't tell, even though it's hiding in plain sight" kind of thing. It's totally f*cked up, but quite common. I find this is expecially true with the more "masculine" gay men (who are, by the way, the majority, and can easily pass for being straight). They have a harder time accepting reality than the stereotypically "feminine" gay man.
I know it's hard to understand this but heterosexuality is the norm and some of us believe that everyone is heterosexual and homosexuality is learned.
The answer to this has been covered a zillion times. No one in their right mind would choose to be gay, especially true for men. There's a huge social penality for being gay. That penalty is less than it used to be, but still quite high for most.
If you don't believe that, it's because you've never actually talked to very many gay men or lesbians to know better.
But I suspect, no amount of evidence would ever change your mind, because then your whole world view unravels.
I think there are more people willing to openly admit they are gay at this point in time. Though it's not absolutely socially acceptable in our society, it has certainly become more socially acceptable and thus more people are willing to out themselves.
I also think there is a lot of confusion as to what constitutes homosexuality versus, say, being sexually curious or adventurous. Psychologically, human sexuality is an extraordinarily complex thing that I'm not sure we have a complete handle on understanding yet. Generally, homosexuality is constituted by the desire to not just have sex with a member of the same sex but to also get involved with relationships and to have the potential of falling in a sort of matrimonial love with that person.
However, as a backwards and sex-obssessed (and repressed) culture, we often only view the sexual aspects of something to determine the sexual orientation of a person. I wholly believe it's possible for a straight person to perform a homosexual act out of curiosity, adventurousness, or something of that nature without actually being a homosexual. Today's society, however, generally dictates that a homosexual act makes you a homosexual.
Churches and religious organizations are fantastic at this as they often choose to eliminate the psychology behind homosexual acts and only focus on the acts themselves. Their dim-witted view that someone can "pray away the gay" is not only unsupported by almost every single finding in the psychological community but it's also been deemed a hazardous suggestion often creating severe depression and even triggering suicide to try and change someone's sexuality.
On the other hand, if we are talking about, say, a heterosexual male who desires relationships with women, finds women attractive, and has only a curiosity towards homosexual encounters, I do believe those curious feelings do not comprise the whole of that persons sexuality. It may be possible to suppress those feelings and lead an otherwise healthy life. In that situation, maybe going to church and praying would be a good idea (not because prayer actually does any good other than offering a social medium of support and interaction). But, that does not constitute "praying away the gay." It only suppresses what is widely ignored as a very real part of human sexuality and that, in my opinion, is a bad thing.
Until we can figure out that homosexuality is not just comprised of acts performed but of the entirety of a persons' sexual nature (to include their feelings and motivations to members of both the same and opposite sex) we will continue to undergo the same pathetic and dangerous misunderstanding that you can simply "turn off" the switch if you really try hard enough.
In fact, I've never met a homosexual who did not have a traumatic childhood.
Biased and irrelevant. By whose assessment, and for what reasons, were the lives of every homosexual you have met, labeled "traumatic"? How large is your statistical sample? Where did you meet these people? Why were you exposed to discussions, not about childhood events, but about the nature of personally revealing details from each person's childhood?
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Considering the fact that the Catholic Church played a big part in the spread of HIV amongst heterosexuals in places like Africa because of their ignorant dogmatic stance on the use of condoms.... well....
