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I would argue that few straight people are "afraid" of anything that has to do with gayness, other than the early propensity of gay men to contract and spread HIV/AIDs.
We are a little angry, though. Angry, for example, at the sudden wrenching of our language into redefinitions of marriage to change from "man and wife" to "two (so far) people", and the changing of our military from "a force that defends our country and kills our enemies" to "an agency charged with forcing young men and women to cohabit with openly homosexual members of the same sex." In the first case, we feel mocked and our commited unions of husbands and wives -- two opposites, the natural production of children and the union of families through the blending and inheritance of genes -- cheapened by the legal imposition on our cuture of what amounts to a travesty of marriage with two "husbands" or "wives": absurd on its face, and a contradiction of all normal human behavior; in the second case, we are made more than a little uneasy by the prospect of loading yet more non-military responsibility on our armed forces, beyond the babysitiing role they perform in Iraq and Afghanistan, while simultaneously asking them to kill bad guys but not hurt (the) civilians (who probably hate them anyway), and now saying "okay, pretend that it's okay to live, sleep, shower, with members of the same sex who may want to have sex with you." This is a recipe for something, but a better and more combat-ready military is not it.
Most straight people are willing to live and let live with gays. Just don't attempt to force us to pretend that "marriage" means any two adults getting dressed up and eating a big cake, or that the defense of our country depends on gays ogling straights in the shower without fear of reprisal, and that a large chunk of the defense budget needs to be set aside to adjudicating harrassment lawsuits and he-said he-said / she-said she-said tiffs, spats, and worse. In other words, stop pretending that straights and gays are the same. We're not. And isn't that, after all, what "celebrating gay pride" is all about? Celebrating all those glorious "differences"? Isn't that, in the end, the whole point of sexual PREFERENCE?
Now you can call me a homophobe if it makes you feel better. I'm not even sure what the term means, though I'm sure folks are lined up to explain to me why I'm evil and need to be re-educated. But I really don't think that I'm arguing from fear, ignorance, or intolerance. If anything, the ignorance and intolerance are on the side of those who would tell straight people like me that everything I know and believe about marriage and the military service (both of which I have experienced) needs to be thrown out and my opinions need to be changed because....well, because you say so. In which case, exactly who is being intolerant here? Me, with a life of experience and a society and culture based on heterosexuality? Or you, with a need to change society because it makes you afraid and angry?
Hmm. Afraid and angry. Wasn't that your original question?
This is the finest articulation of how so many of us feel that I can recall ever seeing on this board....outstanding!
Thank you! I call you very wise and very brave in a society currently lacking in both qualities.
Many things have existed for ages, that does not in any way mean they are not aberrant behaviors. Such an arguement reasonably leads to acceptance of rape, incest, teenage marriage etc. Simply because something has been done for ages does not normalize it.
Are you saying you think homosexuality is "just a behavior"? What evidence do you base this opinion on?
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Originally Posted by Tin Knocker
At any rate the OP asked about homophobia, is it your assertion that anyone who thinks homosexuality is a sexual disorder is homophobic?
It would indicate to me that they are ill-informed about human sexuality and sexual orientation.
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Originally Posted by Tin Knocker
I must say I think homophobia is an invention of homosexual apologists.
The word "homophobia" was invented by a straight psychologist. George Weinberg.
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Originally Posted by Tin Knocker
On the other hand, you are correct, it has not stopped many homosexuals from becoming very successful. Which itself serves clearly to illustrate the fact that homosexuals are NOT discriminated against in any real way.
So can you please post a link to all those anti-discrimination laws based on sexual orientation like the ones for religion, race, gender etc?
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Originally Posted by Tin Knocker
Some just seem stuck on the fact that people recognize their sexual behavior as abnormal. Its only a big deal to those who suffer from heterophobia.
Your statement doesn’t make any sense. Homosexuals disliking certain bigoted heterosexuals who express their fear, dislike, hatred and ignorance about homosexuality with slurs and name calling does not equate to fear, hate or dislike of all straight people. That’s an inaccurate use of the word “heterophobia”.
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Originally Posted by Tin Knocker
In answer to the OP its like racism, neither side really wants it to go away, America loves sensationalism & people like attention.
Perhaps many people just love to have a scapegoat to vent their anger, fear and hatred on? Perhaps all that cortisol pumping through their bloodstream gives them some excitement? Or perhaps it helps them feel better about themselves if they can defecate on other people who are different to them?
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In the military I'm willing to bet it's actually straight (okay, mostly straight) men who rape other men, as it is in jail. It's largely a dominance thing as well.
I would argue that few straight people are "afraid" of anything that has to do with gayness, other than the early propensity of gay men to contract and spread HIV/AIDs.
We are a little angry, though. Angry, for example, at the sudden wrenching of our language into redefinitions of marriage to change from "man and wife" to "two (so far) people", and the changing of our military from "a force that defends our country and kills our enemies" to "an agency charged with forcing young men and women to cohabit with openly homosexual members of the same sex." In the first case, we feel mocked and our commited unions of husbands and wives -- two opposites, the natural production of children and the union of families through the blending and inheritance of genes -- cheapened by the legal imposition on our cuture of what amounts to a travesty of marriage with two "husbands" or "wives": absurd on its face, and a contradiction of all normal human behavior; in the second case, we are made more than a little uneasy by the prospect of loading yet more non-military responsibility on our armed forces, beyond the babysitiing role they perform in Iraq and Afghanistan, while simultaneously asking them to kill bad guys but not hurt (the) civilians (who probably hate them anyway), and now saying "okay, pretend that it's okay to live, sleep, shower, with members of the same sex who may want to have sex with you." This is a recipe for something, but a better and more combat-ready military is not it.
Most straight people are willing to live and let live with gays. Just don't attempt to force us to pretend that "marriage" means any two adults getting dressed up and eating a big cake, or that the defense of our country depends on gays ogling straights in the shower without fear of reprisal, and that a large chunk of the defense budget needs to be set aside to adjudicating harrassment lawsuits and he-said he-said / she-said she-said tiffs, spats, and worse. In other words, stop pretending that straights and gays are the same. We're not. And isn't that, after all, what "celebrating gay pride" is all about? Celebrating all those glorious "differences"? Isn't that, in the end, the whole point of sexual PREFERENCE?
Now you can call me a homophobe if it makes you feel better. I'm not even sure what the term means, though I'm sure folks are lined up to explain to me why I'm evil and need to be re-educated. But I really don't think that I'm arguing from fear, ignorance, or intolerance. If anything, the ignorance and intolerance are on the side of those who would tell straight people like me that everything I know and believe about marriage and the military service (both of which I have experienced) needs to be thrown out and my opinions need to be changed because....well, because you say so. In which case, exactly who is being intolerant here? Me, with a life of experience and a society and culture based on heterosexuality? Or you, with a need to change society because it makes you afraid and angry?
Hmm. Afraid and angry. Wasn't that your original question?
Seriously? This is the best post on here. I'm a live and let live kind of person, but I do reserve the right (as do many others) to be allowed to have an opinion without being persecuted and called names for that opinion. The term being used for those who don't agree with a certain lifestyle, homophobic, is clearly a term coined for the sole intention of insulting and attacking those who don't share the beliefs of homosexuals....OR those who are not homosexual but fight to the death defending homosexuals.
Who's attacking who!? Who's insulting and belittling who? There are obvious radicals out there, but the biggest share of that type of people aren't only targeting homosexuals, but rather, anyone who thinks differently than they do. I ask you, don't radical homosexuals fall into the very same category?......calling names, attacking those whose beliefs are different than theirs?
As for the "gays in the military" argument...why not? You know, if women are to be allowed in the military, why shouldn't homosexuals. It's not as if every homosexual is in a constant state of lust after someone of their own gender! Many of these people are already in committed relationships back home. That's like saying that a married soldier with children, is lusting after every female soldier they are serving with...unable to control their sexual appetite because GI Jane is walking by his side.
Even if biological in origin its a disorder & stateing that does not make one a terrible person or mean they hate gay people.
Thats peculiar, given the fact that many gay people start out with the oposite sex before discovering they are gay & many swap back & forth or are openly Bi sexual. I think it takes not a scientist to show definitively that people certainly change which sex they want to like for whatever reasons all the time. All it takes is an honest look around.
I'm not sure but people make choices that complicate their lives all the time. Why does a junkie shoot dope or a girl turn to prostitution?
Also the fact is there are very few people who despise homosexuals. Most are very tolerant of it to a point. That point for most seems to be when we are forced to think of it as normal behaviour. Its clearly not & while it sure doesn't hurt me I'm not going to call a spade a rake just because the spade doesn't like the reality of its existance.
The flaw there is that Jews are singled out because of race & religion, it has nothing in common with the reasons most people honest about homosexuality are called homophobes.
This is flawed in many ways. Do you think it would be fine for men & women to serve together in ways that kept them in close personal proximity for weeks on end? Do you think placing the value of someones feelings above that of anothers life is a good thing?
Theres no question that knowing someone is sexually attracted to you can be distracting, be it a woman or man. Thrusting that into an already high strung situation just to make a small group of people feel better about themselves seems very thoughtless.
Judging by what I read here its not rare at all. I think the way you guys twist the race thing into it is very telling. You need to bring a subject that truly has hatred & discrimination at its core into it to justify your position.
Fact, Gay people were never slaves, gay people were never lined up & shot like victims of racism have been, gay people were never denied the vote, it goes on & on. The only thing gay people in modern times need fear it seems are peoples words & opinions, things easilly ignored IF you just want to live in peace. Instead some seem to need to root out things to cry about.
Agreed, but the fact remains, that homosexuality, regardless of causation, is a sexual disorder or mental disorder of one type or another & those who refuse to lie to themselves & say its normal are labled as being intolerant at best & more commonly homophobic.
That said I have gay friends, they know my feelings & seem to have little trouble accepting them. I dont hate anybody, but dont urinate on my head & tell me its raining.
Wow. Where to start? How is that you claim to have "friends" who are gay, yet know so very little about homosexuality?
It's too late to post any more tonight...I'll try to be back tomorrow to address some of your opinions in more detail.
In the military I'm willing to bet it's actually straight (okay, mostly straight) men who rape other men, as it is in jail. It's largely a dominance thing as well.
And you would be correct about.
According to the National Centre for Victims of Crime, men who rape other men are not usually homosexual.
The National Center for Victims of Crime - Library/Document Viewer (http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32361 - broken link)
I think this video goes to the point of the OP better than any argument presented so far. A video is worth a million words.
Thanks again bulldogdad. Are you aware of who NARTH are?
They are a small fringe group of religiously conservative psychologists, psychotherapists etc (with around 160 clinical members as far as I am aware).
Their religiously motivated views on homosexuality, and promotion of so-called "reparative" therapy, have been REJECTED by EVERY major health organization like the American Medical Association, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Academy of Pediatricians, the American Counselling Assocation, The American Psychoanalytical Assocation and more. These groups have hundreds of thousands of professionally qualified clinical members.
Why have NARTH's views and methods been rejected by every major health organization?
A video is worth a million words? Okay, please watch this video of Dr Russell from the APA's task force on a review of NARTH's so-called "reparative" therapy.
All the major health organizations have one thing in common in their code of ethics. "Do No Harm".
NARTH doesn't even have a code of ethics. That should tell you something about them.
These people are basically religiously motivated, un-scientific, anti-homosexual quacks propagating discredited misinformation about homosexuality.
I would argue that few straight people are "afraid" of anything that has to do with gayness, other than the early propensity of gay men to contract and spread HIV/AIDs.
We are a little angry, though. Angry, for example, at the sudden wrenching of our language into redefinitions of marriage to change from "man and wife" to "two (so far) people", and the changing of our military from "a force that defends our country and kills our enemies" to "an agency charged with forcing young men and women to cohabit with openly homosexual members of the same sex." In the first case, we feel mocked and our commited unions of husbands and wives -- two opposites, the natural production of children and the union of families through the blending and inheritance of genes -- cheapened by the legal imposition on our cuture of what amounts to a travesty of marriage with two "husbands" or "wives": absurd on its face, and a contradiction of all normal human behavior; in the second case, we are made more than a little uneasy by the prospect of loading yet more non-military responsibility on our armed forces, beyond the babysitiing role they perform in Iraq and Afghanistan, while simultaneously asking them to kill bad guys but not hurt (the) civilians (who probably hate them anyway), and now saying "okay, pretend that it's okay to live, sleep, shower, with members of the same sex who may want to have sex with you." This is a recipe for something, but a better and more combat-ready military is not it.
The term marriage has been rediefined throughout history way before now. The act of being married has taken many forms and purposes, and just because you are comfortbale iwht it the way it is now because it suits you, doesn't mean it should remain a static entitiy. Shoot if it had stayed the way it started it would be a non-religious, business proposition for the purpose of landholdings and bloodlines? I'm kind of glad it has evolved from that, aren't you?
We are a species of evolution, hopefully. And though there are always going to be some who fight that, it is inevitable and necessary. I believe in G-d and believe that my purpose is to constantly evolve to be better then I am. Part fo that is being open to change and evolution. So to argue that people are mad because they don't like changes to what they know...well, I guess all I can say tot hat is, tough.
Just think about how many other laws have evolved for the benefit of society, even when many couldn't see it's benefit. I read your post and the first thing that came to mind was how peopel were upset when the right to vote was being changed to include women and people of color. I am sure they had the same argument as you.
Quote:
Most straight people are willing to live and let live with gays. Just don't attempt to force us to pretend that "marriage" means any two adults getting dressed up and eating a big cake, or that the defense of our country depends on gays ogling straights in the shower without fear of reprisal, and that a large chunk of the defense budget needs to be set aside to adjudicating harrassment lawsuits and he-said he-said / she-said she-said tiffs, spats, and worse. In other words, stop pretending that straights and gays are the same. We're not. And isn't that, after all, what "celebrating gay pride" is all about? Celebrating all those glorious "differences"? Isn't that, in the end, the whole point of sexual PREFERENCE?
Now you can call me a homophobe if it makes you feel better. I'm not even sure what the term means, though I'm sure folks are lined up to explain to me why I'm evil and need to be re-educated. But I really don't think that I'm arguing from fear, ignorance, or intolerance. If anything, the ignorance and intolerance are on the side of those who would tell straight people like me that everything I know and believe about marriage and the military service (both of which I have experienced) needs to be thrown out and my opinions need to be changed because....well, because you say so. In which case, exactly who is being intolerant here? Me, with a life of experience and a society and culture based on heterosexuality? Or you, with a need to change society because it makes you afraid and angry?
Hmm. Afraid and angry. Wasn't that your original question?
I don't understand your point of view. I am heterosexual, married to a person of the opposite sex. So what am I afraid of in wanting to allow gay marriage and the over turning of DADT? And who calls it sexual preferance? Are you attracked to women just because you have a greater liking and they are your first choice?
The "great debate" here is not whether or not a person has the right to hold views that are either in support of LGBT (henceforth referred to as "Gay") people or against them. It is a free country. We have freedom of speech. Nobody is trying to take away your right to express a point of view.
If you voice an opinion that reeks of ignorance and bigotry it is only fair that those on the other side refute those views. The constitutional right of freedom of speech goes both ways.
The struggle of gay people today in the US has to do with civil rights and equality and being treated with respect. That's all.
Some of the folks here are trying to justify and legitimize their prejudice against gay people by making untruthful accusations, perpetuating stereotypes, and using the tactic of defamation.
Let's face it, I don't think anyone in this insignificant thread on the internet is going to "change" or "convert" the other person. If we are adults our opinions are probably already formed. Then what am I doing here, posting on the thread? It's interesting to hear all the arguments, that's all.
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