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Old 02-06-2011, 11:22 PM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
38,651 posts, read 26,458,831 times
Reputation: 12664

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
This is a phenomenon I've never really understood is why those that are heavily christian, are also heavily republicans. If you really think about it besides abortion views, Jesus was a liberal. Not a leftest republican or democrat, but a full-blown green party tree hugging flaming liberal.
The teachings are about living frugally, to help the poor, to only live with what you need and give your unneeded wealth away. To open your doors to the needy and that greed is evil. Even how Jesus is depicted in looking, long hair, beard, sandals, pretty much exactly like hippies of the 60's.
It just seems to make sense that if you are a true follower of the bible, you would be a hardcore liberal, not a conservative.

Obviously, numerous biblical principles exist which have been encorporated into modern societal norms and the laws we have enacted to help us live peacefully with one another.

The reason a system like the one which existed in ancient Israel is incompatible with ours is that it required everyone living under it to adhere to a rigid set of laws and offered little freedom. The Apostle Paul referred to Jewish law as a "care taker", but Christians believe the law was fulfilled by Jesus and that each of his followers are no longer required to keep the law but are free to live with faith in Christ and follow his example.

From the beginning, God has given each of us an independent will.

We are free to follow our hearts, but we are also accountable for our actions before God.

Accountability and freedom are logically connected and complimentary concepts.

Accountability and freedom are very, very American and also very, very Christian.

It is for this reason that we have traditionally been both the freest nation and the most Christianized nation.

Accountability and freedom are wholly incompatible with liberalism.
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Old 02-07-2011, 12:40 AM
 
Location: somewhere in the woods
16,880 posts, read 15,235,969 times
Reputation: 5240
Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
This is a phenomenon I've never really understood is why those that are heavily christian, are also heavily republicans. If you really think about it besides abortion views, Jesus was a liberal. Not a leftest republican or democrat, but a full-blown green party tree hugging flaming liberal.
The teachings are about living frugally, to help the poor, to only live with what you need and give your unneeded wealth away. To open your doors to the needy and that greed is evil. Even how Jesus is depicted in looking, long hair, beard, sandals, pretty much exactly like hippies of the 60's.
It just seems to make sense that if you are a true follower of the bible, you would be a hardcore liberal, not a conservative.

show me where Jesus is liberal.

also, even if he is liberal, I dont think he would want the goverment to do all the helping.
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Old 02-07-2011, 02:39 AM
 
11,944 posts, read 14,814,895 times
Reputation: 2772
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Obviously, numerous biblical principles exist which have been encorporated into modern societal norms and the laws we have enacted to help us live peacefully with one another.
Those norms and laws are a worldwide amalgamation coming from sources that predate Christianity, and even Judaic traditions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
The reason a system like the one which existed in ancient Israel is incompatible with ours is that it required everyone living under it to adhere to a rigid set of laws and offered little freedom. The Apostle Paul referred to Jewish law as a "care taker", but Christians believe the law was fulfilled by Jesus and that each of his followers are no longer required to keep the law but are free to live with faith in Christ and follow his example.
Not incompatible because we've had various versions of those same laws going on from the very beginning. They're called blue laws now, most of which have been repealed, but a few still linger. Your purist version of 'freedom' meant blacks were zero until they got an upgrade to 3/5ths of a human being, but women were zero from day one far post dating the abolishment of slavery.

As for jewish law being 'irrelevant' to Christianity you'll have to explain better why that's so to all denominations including the old testament in their teachings. Explain it to every Christian grasping at old testament scripture to justify their politics why their source material isn't valid. I'll be sure to wear a flak jacket if I'm a fly on the wall for that convo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
From the beginning, God has given each of us an independent will.

We are free to follow our hearts, but we are also accountable for our actions before God.

Accountability and freedom are logically connected and complimentary concepts.

Accountability and freedom are very, very American and also very, very Christian.
Nolo Contendere

Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
It is for this reason that we have traditionally been both the freest nation and the most Christianized nation.
In your definition of freedom that might be so but other civilizations have offered different versions of freedom for the rest of us 'non white males' majority that trumped even US law. A concubine in Japan 1900's had more freedom/ latitude in her personal life than any American woman of the same time period. The truth is ugly, thanks in large part to Abigail Adams it was confronted. Look at it and remember this land is my land.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Accountability and freedom are wholly incompatible with liberalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
show me where Jesus is liberal.

also, even if he is liberal, I dont think he would want the goverment to do all the helping.
These last 2 statements are the same to me. Governments function is to facilitate law, order, and commerce. Provide for the general defense and welfare. It cannot wipe anyones behind. It cannot deliver salvation or save your soul. It can maintain a basis that eliminates every excuse for theft, and most excuses for violent conflict resolutions. So what help are you two referencing? Can people be accountable for themselves or experience freedom in any measure if they're economically beholden to a crooked market? If freedom itself is no longer a birthright, but determined by how much money is in your pocket?

Reminds me of that economic trickster Taipei recruiting chinese women, charging them astronomical fees for the promise of an "American job", only to find themselves imported to a sweat shop labor camp replete with barbed wire, wages set just enough to cover their overpriced room and board, nothing left over at the end of the day. Not even enough to send back home to their starving families, which was the motive for most of them traveling. Others were treated as if they had a debt to the company for the privilege of having that job that took years to pay off and saw no wages for years. I wonder to myself if that's their only impression of the American way or if it's the corporate test run on chinese folks for the economic plan they have for Americans. Time will tell.

Is that liberal or conservative? Who defends these creeps??? Not Jesus. Not me.
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Old 02-07-2011, 06:57 AM
 
10,092 posts, read 8,225,994 times
Reputation: 3411
Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
This is a phenomenon I've never really understood is why those that are heavily christian, are also heavily republicans. If you really think about it besides abortion views, Jesus was a liberal. Not a leftest republican or democrat, but a full-blown green party tree hugging flaming liberal.
The teachings are about living frugally, to help the poor, to only live with what you need and give your unneeded wealth away. To open your doors to the needy and that greed is evil. Even how Jesus is depicted in looking, long hair, beard, sandals, pretty much exactly like hippies of the 60's.
It just seems to make sense that if you are a true follower of the bible, you would be a hardcore liberal, not a conservative.
When I became a republican, it didn't used to be like that. Many R's used to actually take a fairly moderate stand on social issues, and there was room for diversity. There's a really interesting concept among some theologians--that there are actually two versions of Christianity now that really don't have much in common, except that they both claim Jesus as savior, and they both use the name Christianity. According to these folks, they're different enough that they qualify as different religions, not just different Christian denominations--the "rule of law" folks who see the bible as a rule book, and the "rule of love" folks who focus on Christ's message of love and salvation.

The R party has moved far right, and there's no room left for moderates--we're what they call Rhinos. I can't tell you the number of times I've been called a Commie on this board, and I'm about as much of a capitalist as it gets. It makes sense that people with a more extreme view of faith would be drawn to the R party now. If you're the fear centered, "God is going to get you if you step out of line" and the "bible is a rule book" type where every word is taken as black and white and literal, it makes sense that you would be a social conservative. They see the bible as literal--black and white--and they tend to view the world that way too. Those folks have landed with the R's.

The rest of us--the ones who see Christianity more from the stand point of following Christ's teachings of love and salvation, and the old testament as parable to teach us moral lessons, but interpreted through the times in which the parables were told, don't fit with the R's anymore--most are dems or independents. Dem's and independents tend to see the world as different shades of grey--that things in life are very rarely black and white, and that you have to understand the whole story in it's entire context to find the truth. That's how we look at our faith as well--that we're on a journey to understand and live the message of Christ, and to become more spiritual people. We take Christ's word literally, but the rest is context to help us understand more deeply.
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Old 02-07-2011, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Tampa Florida
22,229 posts, read 17,898,747 times
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Why? It pretty clear. They worship what the consider, Divine.
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Old 02-07-2011, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,884,784 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeywrenching View Post
show me where Jesus is liberal.

also, even if he is liberal, I dont think he would want the goverment to do all the helping.
Jesus didn’t complain about the government and its control. He appears to be for separation of government and religion. He didn’t worship the rich or hold much respect for priests. Connecting with God was a personal issue for him. He certainly didn’t make his daily prayer a public event, but something he engaged in isolation. He was also against use of “God” to benefit financially. He showed no signs of being a free-market, capitalist person.
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Old 02-07-2011, 08:27 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,446 posts, read 16,217,463 times
Reputation: 6964
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post

Accountability and freedom are very, very American and also very, very Christian.

It is for this reason that we have traditionally been both the freest nation and the most Christianized nation.

Accountability and freedom are wholly incompatible with liberalism.
You mean like all problems are caused by liberals and conservatives all innocent of any wrong doing?
The most hilarious of your points is the one I bolded. It's just too funny!
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Old 02-07-2011, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Long Island
32,832 posts, read 19,553,756 times
Reputation: 9633
Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
This is a phenomenon I've never really understood is why those that are heavily christian, are also heavily republicans. If you really think about it besides abortion views, Jesus was a liberal. Not a leftest republican or democrat, but a full-blown green party tree hugging flaming liberal.
The teachings are about living frugally, to help the poor, to only live with what you need and give your unneeded wealth away. To open your doors to the needy and that greed is evil. Even how Jesus is depicted in looking, long hair, beard, sandals, pretty much exactly like hippies of the 60's.
It just seems to make sense that if you are a true follower of the bible, you would be a hardcore liberal, not a conservative.
jesus was a liberal????

you mean he believed in heavy regulation that stiffled business...??

he believed it was ok to kill a child???

he though it was ok to commit sodomy???

he though it was ok to commit adultery...and use a cigar???

he though it was ok to tax unfairly..and unevenly???

he though it was ok to steel from the haves, just because someone else is not willing or smart enough to work???

do you really think he would be all for the globalist fascist views of the liberals (progressives)???

do you really think he though the government could do a better job with you money than you??

do you really think he thought the government could do a better job, than your own personal responsibility???

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Old 02-08-2011, 06:38 AM
 
10,875 posts, read 13,842,250 times
Reputation: 4896
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
jesus was a liberal????

you mean he believed in heavy regulation that stiffled business...??
Business is often regulated to promote a safe and fair environment for the workers and the earth. Jesus would not approve of people being forced into hard labor, paid pennies, and ruining the earth god created in the name of greed, selfishness and power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
he believed it was ok to kill a child???
Murder is a sin, if you are trying to paint those on the left kill children that is downright disgusting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
he though it was ok to commit sodomy???
No he felt it was a sin, this and abortion views are the only two serious "hot topics" that do not go with the liberal views

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
he though it was ok to commit adultery...and use a cigar???
No, especially having gay sex in public bathrooms

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
he though it was ok to tax unfairly..and unevenly???
There is no real explanation of jesus' view on taxation, though he likely would have felt there should be no taxes as the wealthy should share with all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
he though it was ok to steel from the haves, just because someone else is not willing or smart enough to work???
Stealing is wrong, but in the eyes of Jesus the wealthy should take only what they need, and give the rest to the needy so all can live happily in the land of god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
do you really think he would be all for the globalist fascist views of the liberals (progressives)???
Jesus would be very against the fascist far right views as they promote greed and exploiting the working people. Big no-no in the eyes of the lord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
do you really think he though the government could do a better job with you money than you??
He would feel there should be no government as we would govern ourselves, provide equally to all, and live under the words of the lord.

Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
do you really think he thought the government could do a better job, than your own personal responsibility???
See above.
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Old 02-08-2011, 06:49 AM
 
30,202 posts, read 18,779,505 times
Reputation: 21049
Quote:
Originally Posted by TempesT68 View Post
This is a phenomenon I've never really understood is why those that are heavily christian, are also heavily republicans. If you really think about it besides abortion views, Jesus was a liberal. Not a leftest republican or democrat, but a full-blown green party tree hugging flaming liberal.
The teachings are about living frugally, to help the poor, to only live with what you need and give your unneeded wealth away. To open your doors to the needy and that greed is evil. Even how Jesus is depicted in looking, long hair, beard, sandals, pretty much exactly like hippies of the 60's.
It just seems to make sense that if you are a true follower of the bible, you would be a hardcore liberal, not a conservative.

Wow. So because hippies had long hair, Jesus is a liberal?

I guess you have never read the Bible. Don't worry, the Apostles made the same mistake intially. They presumed that Christ would be king of an earthly kingdom in Israel and that they would benefit from this association. It was only later that they learned that the kingdom would not be on earth and that Christ was not a political leader.

Read the Bible. Even for an atheist, there is a tremendous amount of wisdom there.
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