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That's my point. He was not so mentally ill that he was NOT influenced by politics and violent rhetoric......stuff he read on the Internet, or saw on TV, or heard on the radio, or read in books, etc., etc. What do you think a guy like that would conclude IF he read a political forum like this one? I can't imagine that he would be able to make Youtubes and post them, have a social networking page, and NOT explore other areas of the Internet.......including political message boards.
He wasn't a vegetable, he was mentally ill; severely so it would seem. I think you are trying to apply how a rational person would view information, conversations, etc and then make decisions, good or bad, based upon that information.
Loughner keyed on grammar as his trigger point, based on accounts from those who knew him. With the very mentally ill, which in this case appears to be symptomatic of paranoid schizophrenia, they do not think like you nor I. He even had difficulty in everyday conversations and interacting in his classes at college. You cannot apply logic to his thinking as it is beyond logic.
Good grief! Do you think mentally ill people spend their lives in some kind of psychedlic dreamscape-hallucination?
No, there lives are characterized by alternating periods of lucidity and paranoia. Some (Thelonious Monk) live very productive lives. Some (Syd Barrett, Mike Tyson) begin productive lives, but cannot sustain them. And some succumb to it and shoot up commuter rail cars (Colin Ferguson).
Even if they are influenced by what goes on, what are you going to do?
*Cleanse everything of anything that is offensive? Every cartoon, book, movie, cd, etc? You would turn us into a society of robots.
*Lock them all up? Can't do it. Violates the Constitution. Look up the case law that dumped them all out onto the streets.
sheesh
I can tell you from personal experience that MOST criminals do not insist upon their right to an attorney, and often ignore Miranda, even though they may sign a written copy of their Miranda rights, saying they have been advised and understand. I can tell you that law enforcement today is not all that respectful of Miranda. They will read those rights to defendants, but will continue to talk to them even when they have asked for an attorney. And most criminals are easily convinced that "everybody" wants to help them so why not talk to law enforcement. They will talk if for no other reason than to get "their side" of the story out.
It's very unusual that someone who is very deeply mentally ill would have the wherewithall to invoke his rights AND to keep his mouth shut....unless, of course, that person's mental illness includes a very strong anti-government paranoia.
I'm not suggesting now nor have I ever suggested that creating laws would solve this problem. I'm saying that people in positions of power and with a large stage, as well as ALL OF US, need to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their words and actions.
Yes, the same indirect link to rightwing talk show host can be used just as honestly as the indirect link to Obama's hostile rhetoric regarding bringing a gun to knife fight, punishing enemies, getting in their face, etc.
Are you one of the ones who admit Obama's rhetoric has been hostile and violent as well? Or do you deny it and keep pointing back at the right despite clear evidence that Obama's rhetoric has been more hostile than any president in modern times?
I think the point is we should all tone it down. It doesn't matter so much who's doing it, no one should be.
Do you think there a physical records which would show everything exposure you have had to different political ideas? Just because you do not have a "link" to prove this guy "tuned in" to Palin, Beck, Limbaugh does not mean that he was not influenced by them in other ways. Just because he is not a "screaming Palin fan" or Beck fan, etc., does not mean that he was never influenced by the "messages." Common sense allows us to see patterns and see a connection between cause and effect......
btw, just because law enforcement is called regarding a certain individual, even if LE contacts that person doesn't mean there is an arrest. You do know that, don't you. So if you have no proof of an arrest because of irrational activity, there must not have been an arrest.
It also does not mean that he WAS influenced by them. You are making an assumption. You can't prove cause and effect based on assumptions. That is NOT common sense.
And yes, I know that not everyone is arrested when contacted by police. I've heard of 4 instances where he made threats of violence and my question is why he wasn't investigated after all that. It's apparent to most people that have simply googled his name that he was nuts. Why was that not done?
He wasn't a vegetable, he was mentally ill; severely so it would seem. I think you are trying to apply how a rational person would view information, conversations, etc and then make decisions, good or bad, based upon that information.
Loughner keyed on grammar as his trigger point, based on accounts from those who knew him. With the very mentally ill, which in this case appears to be symptomatic of paranoid schizophrenia, they do not think like you nor I. He even had difficulty in everyday conversations and interacting in his classes at college. You cannot apply logic to his thinking as it is beyond logic.
Thank you, but I have in fact worked with schizophrenics in the past, as well as other mentally ill people.
I can tell you from personal experience that MOST criminals do not insist upon their right to an attorney, and often ignore Miranda, even though they may sign a written copy of their Miranda rights, saying they have been advised and understand. I can tell you that law enforcement today is not all that respectful of Miranda. They will read those rights to defendants, but will continue to talk to them even when they have asked for an attorney. And most criminals are easily convinced that "everybody" wants to help them so why not talk to law enforcement. They will talk if for no other reason than to get "their side" of the story out.
It's very unusual that someone who is very deeply mentally ill would have the wherewithall to invoke his rights AND to keep his mouth shut....unless, of course, that person's mental illness includes a very strong anti-government paranoia.
I'm not suggesting now nor have I ever suggested that creating laws would solve this problem. I'm saying that people in positions of power and with a large stage, as well as ALL OF US, need to take personal responsibility for the consequences of their words and actions.
People do take responsibility for their words. It's the crazy people that act on a misguided belief that they can't be responsible for.
It also does not mean that he WAS influenced by them. You are making an assumption. You can't prove cause and effect based on assumptions. That is NOT common sense.
And yes, I know that not everyone is arrested when contacted by police. I've heard of 4 instances where he made threats of violence and my question is why he wasn't investigated after all that. It's apparent to most people that have simply googled his name that he was nuts. Why was that not done?
Maybe probable cause could not be established at the time. Maybe there were more pressing actual crimes going on which needed the manpower to investigate. Law enforcement does not have infinite resources. How many calls do you think the Tucson Police Department and/or Pima County Sheriff's Department get each day? How many officers do they have on duty? Out of those officers, how many do you think are actually trained investigators?
People do take responsibility for their words. It's the crazy people that act on a misguided belief that they can't be responsible for.
Here is where we disagree. When I see people such as Beck or Palin or Limbaugh or Hannity, etc., take responsibility for their words and then see them tone it down, I will start to believe that. Seems to me that at this time Limbaugh has just said basically "don't blame us"....and Palin has been very quiet, except for the email to Beck.....which, IMO, sounds rather defensive, not owning responsibility for her words.
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