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Yes, I've been in the mortar platoon, but only on a firebase and I wasn't there long. I guess that's because I wasn't trained for mortars and all they'd let me do is tear off the powder bags and drop the rounds down the tube.
But, I understand where you're coming from. I know grunts are more pack mule than soldier, but I also know that the ability to carry that load is as much mental as it is physical. I've seen big men fold and little men be the last one standing at the end of a long, uphill hump. The difference wasn't their weight, their size or their muscle mass: it was will.
And, I've also seen women in basic training carrying the trainees basic load and doing it day in and day out. Naturally, a basic trainee's load isn't as heavy as a combat load, but it's enough measure a soldier's will and ability.
I've been a Drill Sergeant and Training Officer in co-ed BCT units and have watched the men and women perform side by side, in the field, on bivouac and in the barracks. It's hard to generalize about people, but I think I can safely say that I saw no more women wash out and fall by the wayside than I did men. Most made it, some did not, and that applies to both sexes just about equally.
For some reason most of the platoon averaged 200LB to 230
Oh, should women take a FULL part in training which with us includes platoon versus platoon in rugby union ?
Or are they too weak for that ?
OK, try this, weight 90 lb ruck, a 8 klick forced march on the road, time allowed 72 minutes.
See you were not training infantry, there is a big.big. difference between them and REMFs.
We do allow women to join the infantry, gunners, etc, in my country, to date none have applied to join one of the platoons.
There are a few who are at Battalion HQ, but none have been through infantry training.
If you believe basic and infantry training have a thing in common you are in for a shock if you try it.
I think women should be able to serve in combat units and even fight because that is the only way to end their secondary status in the US military. Until they do this they can't aspire to the highest command ranks like a Service Chief, be considered for Chairman of the Joint Chief of Staff or every get that 4th star. You wouldn't like to have a Marine Commadant who hadn't been in combat or commanded a combat unit of any size, I wouldn't. Fortunately, we may live to see the day when the question to be asked is whether we should let young American males be in a combat unit. For nthen, our boys from places like Cinicinatti Milicron might go into combat not with Meals Ready to Eat but a trusty can of WD-40.
For some reason most of the platoon averaged 200LB to 230
Oh, should women take a FULL part in training which with us includes platoon versus platoon in rugby union ?
Or are they too weak for that ?
OK, try this, weight 90 lb ruck, a 8 klick forced march on the road, time allowed 72 minutes.
See you were not training infantry, there is a big.big. difference between them and REMFs.
We do allow women to join the infantry, gunners, etc, in my country, to date none have applied to join one of the platoons.
There are a few who are at Battalion HQ, but none have been through infantry training.
If you believe basic and infantry training have a thing in common you are in for a shock if you try it.
No, you're right. I haven't trained Infantry women because we don't have that.
But, I HAVE trained Infantry OSUT on Sand Hill at Ft. Benning, so I know a little about the subject. And, the entire nearly 15 years I spent in the Army was spent as an 11B. I held every rank in a rifle or training company from PV-1 to O-3, with the exception of 1SGT, and every duty position too except supply and cook (back when we had company cooks). I've done my time in combat, my time as a trainer, my time as a Drill Sergeant,/Senior Drill Sergeant and Drill Sergeant School NCOIC and OIC and I've trained other peoples troops.
I don't know everything, but I'll match my credentials against any Rugby coach in the world.
Let me shift gears here just a little bit and open a different line of thought.
A lot of people have concerns about a woman's ability to carry a full combat load. I do too. I just think they ought to have the chance to try.
But, maybe there's a solution to it. Maybe there's something which the Army can do to help both the women and men perform better in combat: Take a look at our basic load and see what can be ditched.
Let's face it, guys, the American soldier is the most over-burdened, laden-down soldier in the world. Our individual soldier carries more stuff than battalions of Taliban. We have electronic gear, maybe too much food, night-vision devices, sleeping systems, body armor. We're like a walking Walmart. And, in the greatest of ironies, the Light Infantry carries the biggest loads!
Do we REALLY need to carry all that stuff everywhere we go? Is there anything in that soldiers ruck which he could do without?
Or mine, 5' of OMG. It is a dance to stay alive, so far so good, but I am watching football and drinking a beer so I may be operating on borrowed time
Casper
Let me shift gears here just a little bit and open a different line of thought.
A lot of people have concerns about a woman's ability to carry a full combat load. I do too. I just think they ought to have the chance to try.
But, maybe there's a solution to it. Maybe there's something which the Army can do to help both the women and men perform better in combat: Take a look at our basic load and see what can be ditched.
Let's face it, guys, the American soldier is the most over-burdened, laden-down soldier in the world. Our individual soldier carries more stuff than battalions of Taliban. We have electronic gear, maybe too much food, night-vision devices, sleeping systems, body armor. We're like a walking Walmart. And, in the greatest of ironies, the Light Infantry carries the biggest loads!
Do we REALLY need to carry all that stuff everywhere we go? Is there anything in that soldiers ruck which he could do without?
There are things you can dump. Personally I didn't like the body armor and left if behind on occasion, some of the electronics can be dumped depending on the mission, food; bring power bars. Problem is once you lighten the load you end up adding more ammo and water (both heavy) and bingo right back to where you started. Catch 22.
Casper
Let me shift gears here just a little bit and open a different line of thought.
A lot of people have concerns about a woman's ability to carry a full combat load. I do too. I just think they ought to have the chance to try.
But, maybe there's a solution to it. Maybe there's something which the Army can do to help both the women and men perform better in combat: Take a look at our basic load and see what can be ditched.
Let's face it, guys, the American soldier is the most over-burdened, laden-down soldier in the world. Our individual soldier carries more stuff than battalions of Taliban. We have electronic gear, maybe too much food, night-vision devices, sleeping systems, body armor. We're like a walking Walmart. And, in the greatest of ironies, the Light Infantry carries the biggest loads!
Do we REALLY need to carry all that stuff everywhere we go? Is there anything in that soldiers ruck which he could do without?
There is something to be said on this. I do know that there is some movement in reducing comms gear load without comprimising the capabilities, for example.
There are things you can dump. Personally I didn't like the body armor and left if behind on occasion, some of the electronics can be dumped depending on the mission, food; bring power bars. Problem is once you lighten the load you end up adding more ammo and water (both heavy) and bingo right back to where you started. Catch 22.
Casper
Yes, that's true. A soldier can never have too much ammo or water!
But, really, the amount of gear a soldier carries is very much dependent upon the frequency of re-supply and how it gets to him.
For instance, back in the days when the Army was covered up with helicopters, the Air Mobile units sent troops to the field with only the bare necessities: one days rations, some water, some ammo and that's about it. Anything else they might need would be supplied by the choppers every day or when needed.
Cav units traveled more heavy because the tracks gave them a place to carry it all, but when they left the tracks for foot patrols or sweeps, they'd just carry what they'd need for a few hours.
Today, though, the Army doesn't have that many helicopters. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they don't have nearly enough in theater. And, too much of what they do have is dedicated to carrying senior officers, high officials and the press around from place to place, leaving the troops deficient in resupply assets.
The Hindu Kush is rugged country, but not so rugged that troops in the field couldn't be resupplied more often if the air assets were available. Or, ground assets if there's a road nearby. I understand that sometimes you don't want a helicopter dropping in and revealing your location, but it most cases, the Taliban knows where you are anyhow.
Question: Would more helicopters allow the troops to reduce their burden?
Last edited by stillkit; 01-15-2011 at 07:15 PM..
Reason: Question removed for OPSEC reasons
No, you're right. I haven't trained Infantry women because we don't have that.
But, I HAVE trained Infantry OSUT on Sand Hill at Ft. Benning, so I know a little about the subject. And, the entire nearly 15 years I spent in the Army was spent as an 11B. I held every rank in a rifle or training company from PV-1 to O-3, with the exception of 1SGT, and every duty position too except supply and cook (back when we had company cooks). I've done my time in combat, my time as a trainer, my time as a Drill Sergeant,/Senior Drill Sergeant and Drill Sergeant School NCOIC and OIC and I've trained other peoples troops.
I don't know everything, but I'll match my credentials against any Rugby coach in the world.
Yes two tours of Nam yada yada, ending up a mortar platoon Sergeant,wounded twice.
Walked into that did you not ?
Like you I don't know every thing, but arguing a female who is weaker than a male of sixty will make a fine grunt is a pretty poor argument.
So would that be a fair test 90lb, 8 klicks, seventy two minutes, then dig mortar pits for the excercise ?
What is really sad is this, because the US army has gone so PC you have to argue that women would be just as capable as the men, so if it gets more men killed would you be against it ?
Why no argument for a women only Battalion ?
Yes two tours of Nam yada yada, ending up a mortar platoon Sergeant,wounded twice.
Walked into that did you not ?
Like you I don't know every thing, but arguing a female who is weaker than a male of sixty will make a fine grunt is a pretty poor argument.
So would that be a fair test 90lb, 8 klicks, seventy two minutes, then dig mortar pits for the excercise ?
What is really sad is this, because the US army has gone so PC you have to argue that women would be just as capable as the men, so if it gets more men killed would you be against it ?
Why no argument for a women only Battalion ?
Why no argument for a gay only Battalion? Or, a black only Battalion? It would amount to the same thing, wouldn't it?
Discrimination is discrimination, no matter if it's by color, preference or sex and they're all offensive to the values contained in the Declaration of Independence.
As for that test? I don't know. That might be as good a test as any, but I'll suggest that a rifle company doesn't typically move that far, that fast. Even if the tactical situation demanded it, a good many men wouldn't be able to.
In any case, the particular test isn't as important as giving women the right ruck up and have a go at it.
I'm not suggesting women should be forced into the combat arms. I'm only suggesting they should have the right try, and for those who succeed, the right to do the job. Which, incidently, is the same standard we apply to men.
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