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The issue isn't just about survival or freedom. More often than not the defining factor is opportunity. A child growing up on an indiian reservation in South Dakota doesn't have the same opportunities as a kid growing up on the Upper West Side of New York City or one growing up in upscale surburbia.
The reality is those increased levels of opportunity create HUGE advantages in terms of education, social networks, exposure to positive and successful role models, and outlook and perspective on life that all factor in on an individual's ability to be successful. If two people are equal in terms of intelligence then the less socially and economically advantaged person MUST WORK HARDER and be MORE MENTALLY RESILIENT to get to the same levels financial success than more advantaged individuals.
Unfortunately the Europeans can't sustain what you love about Europe, something for nothing. Protugal, Italy, Ireland, Greece and Spain are on the verge of insolvency. The UK has to dramatically revamp the NHS to keep it afloat.
By the way, your more people=more GDP is pretty much wrong. China has about a billion more people than the US, economic systems means something. The Chinese are begining to understand that, that is why they are catching up to the US. But using your logic their economy should be 4 times the US or EU.
The Chinese are taking advantage of the fact that Americans are choosing to live in a cave. In fact, it appalls me that a country once seen as a symbol of progressiveness is the one that is looking more and more conservative, and stale.
As for GDP, you're correct. But GDP alone is not a proper representative of anything. Two countries could potentially have same GDP and same population, but one could have a lot of waste included. Yes, fiscal waste is a part of GDP, and it is why I think the second largest economy in the world (Germany) is in a far better position than the USA.
Now, while you talk about solvency of some European nations, and specific aspects of British health care system (the conservatives there want to kill it as much as the conservatives want to rid America of all social safety net... national boundaries changes, ideologies don't), how are things here at home? Do we have debt and deficit issues? How long have we had those? And are majority of the people in good fiscal shape, or are they laden with debt? How have these issues been trending over last few decades?
You speak of health care, as if things have been wonderful here. Really? The real picture has a word for it: UNSUSTAINABLE.
It is true in every country, and more so in third world countries.
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Originally Posted by Roadking2003
We are not much different from most other countries. And why is equality of outcome important? Why do you care what other people have?
Most people who are cash poor and debt laden because they choose to be that way.
Nope. The bankers, and the rich in general, are the real victim is an old "move", often coming from people who hate to see left and right... and then a train hits them.
Assuming you're young and working. Your company is not doing well. You're laid off. Won't you love to mention in your resume that you're the reason you were laid off? Or, would you change the tune? You chose to be laid-off, right? No?
Debt crisis has grown substantially over last three decades. It is also being pushed for, in various forms. A good business model dictates that it make more people dependent on it. Good college education is a good start. Then you look at the situation in the USA, universities are becoming more money making schemes than about education. I realized that ten years ago while working on my MBA. I can see why the fear of getting in debt can discourage students. But often, they have no choice. I've started advising people to look beyond the USA for higher education. Heck, I've started advising them to go look for health care in countries like India.
Let us take our collective head out of sand, and work to make for a better society.
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Originally Posted by dunks_galore
Yes, good luck staving off Sharia Law in a country which is 3% Muslim. Thanks for showing how ignorant many Americans are.
Ignorance like that is visible in every country that I have visited. And in every country, crooked politicians take advantage of those sentiments. The more the populace is religiously polarized, the greater the chance of the desire to oppress. Here in America this isn't a new trend. Muslims are the latest in a series of instances that began with the country itself. Thomas Jefferson Memorial has some wise words engraved, which were in response to Christian zealots labeling him an infidel while he was running for President in 1800. They were preaching for a "Christian" President and that Jefferson was not one. He was probably the anti-Christ then that Obama has been quoted by the evangelicals as today.
Then came the phobic attitude against Catholics in late 19th century. Then it was the Jews. Now the Muslims. Throw in Hispanics somewhere there.
Why do you think there is such a range of acheivement and wealth in America? It seem like we are a nation of the obese and ultramarathoners, nonintellectuals and super scholars, working poor and uber rich,etc., etc.
It seems to affect the political process strongly. Although most Americans would consider themselves much more strongly egalitarian than the Europeans, which a feudal system, we are nonetheless highly stratified.
The mean means little. The median American is most of us, and that person is cash poor, debt laden, and worried. I guess I am wondering why we have allowed such tremendous inequalities to develop in our country. Economically, but in many other dimensions of human achievement.
It seems to me that Canada, the European, and East Asian countries are more equal, whereas Latin American is even more extreme. It seems to be that we are heading toward the latter. Do you agree, disagree? And where do you think we are headed?
When it starts raining lollypops and gumdrops, then we can talk egalitarianism, until then, people are free to pursue their dreams or do just barely enough to get by.
When it starts raining lollypops and gumdrops, then we can talk egalitarianism, until then, people are free to pursue their dreams or do just barely enough to get by.
You misunderstood my post. It is not politics, but American culture that was my main interest. It seemed to me that we are more varied than most advanced countries. I could be wrong.
Why do you think there is such a range of acheivement and wealth in America? It seem like we are a nation of the obese and ultramarathoners, nonintellectuals and super scholars, working poor and uber rich,etc., etc.
It seems to affect the political process strongly. Although most Americans would consider themselves much more strongly egalitarian than the Europeans, which a feudal system, we are nonetheless highly stratified.
The mean means little. The median American is most of us, and that person is cash poor, debt laden, and worried. I guess I am wondering why we have allowed such tremendous inequalities to develop in our country. Economically, but in many other dimensions of human achievement.
It seems to me that Canada, the European, and East Asian countries are more equal, whereas Latin American is even more extreme. It seems to be that we are heading toward the latter. Do you agree, disagree? And where do you think we are headed?
You actually think any part of Asia is more balanced and equal than America? Where did you get such an idea?
You actually think any part of Asia is more balanced and equal than America? Where did you get such an idea?
Nita
Japan and South Korea have Gini Index between 25 and 30, and have seen it go down over last several years. The USA has seen it rise (currently at about 40). Some other countries like Germany, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland have it in 20s. China is showing a downward trend, as is India (about 36 right now). To me a downward trend implies a rising middle class.
Free market capitalism and poor/ineffective social programs lead to increasing social stratification. The rich have the advantages, and they make the rules. Outliers exist, but our society is predicated on a lack of social mobility. The notion that we are a meritocracy is laughable, but we're very good at reproducing that particular bit of American mythology.
I couldn't agree with your opinion more. If you don't have a foundation at home that allows you to be emotionally and finaincially secure and your parent(s) don't impart the importance of academics as a child chances are you are not going to do well at school. If don't do well at school pre-college it preducates which colleges you can go to. The way America is structured now universities act as gatekeepers in terms of the best corporate jobs. Some corporations simply don't recruit or consider job applicants from top-tier schools. Sure you can still get a good job without going to a top tier schools but these schools and their social networks are critical advantages throughout a person's career.
And your also right about outliers. Sure you can be exceptionally smart, exceptionally artistic or exceptionally artistically talented and be successful in this society but you are facing long shot odds by trying to get by on sheer talent alone.
Right. And we even have the freedom to fail, although the libs want to make that go away. In countries with more "equal" wealth distribution the average standard of living is lower than ours (unless you're among the politically connected.)
Our poorest citizens have it better than the vast majority of so called average citizens in countries around the world.
Actually your statement is totally wrong.
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In countries with more "equal" wealth distribution the average standard of living is lower than ours
Countries like Norway, Sweden, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Luxembourg, and Switerland exceed the United States in terms of quality of education grades K-12, life expectancy, crime rates, access to public transportation, air quality etc. The difference is Americans tend to define a standard of living as:
"How big is my house",
"How expensive is my car",
"How selective a school can I get my kid into"
"My country club membership"
In other words standards of living are based to individual access to economic privilege. Other countries tend to focus on quality of life issues that will impact the overall population and benefit it.
IMO, if we took all the wealth in the USA and distributed it equally to each person what we would see is......
The same people with money would have it back.
The people living check to check would still be living that way.
And the poor would be even worse off.
The whole "Redistribution of Wealth" fear is Conservative America is a red herring design to play upon the fear of the ignorant and uninformed.
The emphasis shouldn't be on redistributing wealth it should be on improving opportunities for people that are economically deprived. If you improve opportunities for people that are economically deprived you increase the chances that more of them will be successful
Nobody can do anything that will guarantee that everybody will be successful but if you create opportunities people with the drive, determination and willingness to take advantage of them and become successful.
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