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Old 01-30-2011, 02:21 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,136,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
It's not your decision to conduct a detailed analysis now is it?
Who are you to tell anyone what they should be doing with their time? It's clearly his decision. It's clearly not your decision. If you don't appreciate his analysis then don't read his posts. I'm enjoying them. He makes good points. Points you are unable to counter and they will likely go ignored in general.
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:21 PM
 
2,028 posts, read 1,883,601 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artsyguy View Post
It's not your decision to conduct a detailed analysis now is it? Nor is anyone relying on you for anything in regard to "racism". If minorities looked up to you or Dr. Thomas Sowell for the answers we would be doomed. Individuals need to rely on themselves not you or any other demagoguery. Hegemony is a well known sociological concept that affects every single society: and in the USA white people are the "superior class" and they will continue to reinforce their advantages and privileges for decades to come. It's reality.

You probably think workplace mobbing is not about racism or bigotry: it's because of a "personality conflict," "misunderstandings," or "bad work ethic". All of which terms will easily get a hostile bigot out of trouble and somehow advantaged (i.e., if I can say somebody has "bad work ethic" and create a personality conflict that puts me at an advantage and I will have more power. Go ahead and give your omniscient elucidations on workplace mobbing, etc.
Good afternoon, Sir.

Once again, I am not some ideologue who thinks racism or discrimination doesn't exist at all, I can simply show other possibilities for individual situations. Strong emphasis on "individual".

Show me an individual situation where workplace mobbing occurred, and I'll give a detailed analysis. Or, give me a study on workplace mobbing that you agree with and I'll give you my opinion. I'm not going to make a blanket statement about workplace mobbing in general, as that would be intellectually lazy. Obviously there are going to be cases where the root cause is racism/discrimination, and there are going to be cases where it is not.

In regards to minorities looking up to me, that already occurs without me asking for it. I am no one special at all, yet I am someone who pulled myself out of poverty on my own merit because I embraced education, both institutional and self-initiated. I received full academic scholarships to college without listing my race on any forms, so Affirmative Action did not play a role. I started my own business completely self-funded, and grew it to what it is today. If fellow minorities who are impoverished did the same, then most of the remaining problems in the community would disappear. I don't say this because I think I'm some man of importance, I say this because my humble story is the end result of individual self-reliance that you championed for in your post.

I'm not asking for minorities to rely on me for the answers, I'm asking them to do their own research and determine what works best for them. It's quite interesting that when I personally took your advice for other minorities, yet come up with the answers YOU disagree with, I am some how dooming myself and other minorities like me, even though those answers have created success and happiness in all aspects of my life. Obviously Dr. Sowell is successful, so it's ironic that you suggest anyone following his path would be doomed.

It's also ironic that you bring up hegemony and white "superiority" as if to assume I support either. Almost all of my education, self-teaching and growth occurred in majority Black cities and environments, so I have no ulterior motive to uplift whites or any other race.

I am happy to provide you with a detailed analysis of whatever you wish. Send me a link, a youtube video, etc and I'll get started. I enjoy the challenge.

Last edited by Freedom123; 01-30-2011 at 02:36 PM..
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Old 01-30-2011, 02:43 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,136,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
Also spot on, from what I have both read and seen in the industry.
I want to add the story about the people that owned my home before me. They're white to be clear. They bought the home for $150-190k (can't remember exactly) in the late 90s. They refinanced to >$330k by 2007/8. I mean, what's up with that? I spent a little time with the previous owner and she told me that her husband lost his job, they needed to pay bills, etc. I can understand pulling out that money for a medical problem. I'd do whatever I have to if someone in my family needed money due to an illness and be damned the consequences. Her situation was a matter of job loss for one spouse. I can't make sense of it.

So, they pull out a lot of cash and do whatever with it. Clearly, the monthly bill is going to be higher than their current mortgage, right? Maybe they did an ARM? And how could they do so with a job loss? When I read the comments about less sophisticated potential buyers, they're the ones that came to mind for me. They lost their home on a short sale.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:01 PM
 
1,296 posts, read 2,221,101 times
Reputation: 646
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
Good afternoon,

Why the rolling eyes, sir? This is a friendly debate in my eyes, condescension and sarcasm in your question about Dr. Sowell isn't needed to disagree with my point of view, unless it's in self-defense. I have done nothing to you to warrant self-defense in this or any other thread.

I am not Dr. Sowell. In my posts, you will see that I live in the South. Without looking up, I am pretty sure Dr. Sowell teaches at Stanford, and is from Harlem.

Feel free to post any rebuttals you have for any topic I have commented on (or Tim Wise's rebuttals you'll use as a surrogate) and I would love to share the ones I agree or disagree with. I am not some ideologue who thinks racism or discrimination doesn't exist at all, I can simply show other possibilities for individual situations. I refuse to be intellectually lazy and throw out the blanket "racism/discrimination" terms for every single situation that seems negative towards a minority instead of conducting a detailed analysis.

I will happily call "racism" in cases where it truly exists.
I've never called you a liar. Those are your words, not mine. So you're the one that's not able to disagree respectfully. You seem unable to take this thread for what it is. You have some need, to want to see if you can create ridiculously detailed explanations, that still don't prove your point.

Despite your massively overdone research, your arguments boil down to YOUR OPINIONS, and not facts. Besides that, you're getting WAY off topic. You say that you're not trying to prove that racism doesn't exist. But you've certainly made a spectacular effort, to try and trivialize it.

By the way, if you, or any of these others posters, think that this is a 'shallow', 'one-dimensional' thread, then you're free to not post here anymore!
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:05 PM
 
2,028 posts, read 1,883,601 times
Reputation: 1001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
I want to add the story about the people that owned my home before me. They're white to be clear. They bought the home for $150-190k (can't remember exactly) in the late 90s. They refinanced to >$330k by 2007/8. I mean, what's up with that? I spent a little time with the previous owner and she told me that her husband lost his job, they needed to pay bills, etc. I can understand pulling out that money for a medical problem. I'd do whatever I have to if someone in my family needed money due to an illness and be damned the consequences. Her situation was a matter of job loss for one spouse. I can't make sense of it.

So, they pull out a lot of cash and do whatever with it. Clearly, the monthly bill is going to be higher than their current mortgage, right? Maybe they did an ARM? And how could they do so with a job loss? When I read the comments about less sophisticated potential buyers, they're the ones that came to mind for me. They lost their home on a short sale.
This is not surprising. I've seen many folks pull out all of their equity and believe they can afford the new payments, simply because the lender approved them. I've had people come to me while in default and say they simply used the extra funds to make up the differences in payment.

Many more simply obtained an ARM or even worse, an Option ARM. The pre-ARM adjustment payments were exactly the same or less even with a much bigger new principal balance. Once the payments went up in 2 or 3 years, the goal was to refinance, but instead they landed in foreclosure when lending requirements changed during the financial crisis. (Or they trashed their credit before the 2 or 3 years was up). The low payment, then refi before the adjustment pitch was how some sleazy mortgage brokers hooked people. These mortgage brokers' pitch was: "Take out all your equity and the payments would be the same. When the ARM adjusts in 2 yrs, come back and we'll put you in a fixed rate." Some may have already been qualified for a fixed rate, but the broker made a BIG commission on ARMS, and a HUGE commission on Option ARMS. People don't realize how much the mortgage brokers' commission plays a part in what product is offered to the client. I say this not as an outsider, but as someone who owns a mortgage brokerage, so I know the business because people talk and brag. Folks can even read it for themselves on mortgage broker forums out there.

Back to the OP's previous point of race and predatory lending, One of my old long-running marketing campaigns involved researching every person in the land records of multiple areas, who obtained ARM loans from 2005 to present. All racial neighborhoods had them. I will say that borrowers from majority-Black areas seemed to have them more frequently, but what stood out is the signatures on the closing documents filed in the land records were notary witness signatures by people I knew were Black mortgage brokers or Black Realtors. I'm sure there were plenty of white mortgage brokers doing the same thing to their white clients, since greed has no color.

This is why I say we need to compare apples vs apples to determine if there is truly discrimination in lending, since many people of all races patronize people of their own color to obtain loans in the first place. It is a "let's get actual proof with real comparisons" argument, not a "it doesn't exist" argument.

Last edited by Freedom123; 01-30-2011 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:21 PM
 
2,028 posts, read 1,883,601 times
Reputation: 1001
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
I've never called you a liar. Those are your words, not mine. So you're the one that's not able to disagree respectfully. You seem unable to take this thread for what it is. You have some need, to want to see if you can create ridiculously detailed explanations, that still don't prove your point.

Despite your massively overdone research, your arguments boil down to YOUR OPINIONS, and not facts. Besides that, you're getting WAY off topic. You say that you're not trying to prove that racism doesn't exist. But you've certainly made a spectacular effort, to try and trivialize it.

By the way, if you, or any of these others posters, think that this is a 'shallow', 'one-dimensional' thread, then you're free to not post here anymore!
Good afternoon artwomyn,

Below is the post where you called me a liar in so many words. Regardless, I know the truth, so what you call me isn't really important, and I'll let the readers decide. My goal here is friendly dialogue, so let's take our debate in that direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn
I don't believe that you just happen to spend your time, 'quizzing' minorities about racism. That's just too coincidental, as is your claimed involvement in both the real estate, and law enforcement fields. So you have absolutely NO credibility with me!
In regards to the rest of your post, I'm not sure what to comment on since it wasn't really a rebuttal of my arguments. It was an opinion, just as you said mine was. I could give you links proving my opinions, and your "opinion" argument would be moot. Ironically, I did give links in two of my rebuttals. Overall, I gave you a point by point analysis of each link you gave, and you are free to Google stories, studies, etc that support my side if you choose. I come to my opinions by researching both sides before forming my own. If you don't accept my rebuttals, I'm fine with it since we don't have to agree. As long as the tone is cordial, I enjoy the debate.

Finally, I never said this was a shallow or one-dimensional thread. Please point out where I said so, and I will be happy to apologize. As long as there's dialogue, I will continue to post in this thread.

Have a good afternoon.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:27 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,136,590 times
Reputation: 13485
Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
By the way, if you, or any of these others posters, think that this is a 'shallow', 'one-dimensional' thread, then you're free to not post here anymore!
Freedom, in case you don't know this artwomyn's special way of communicating with me. It's amusing at least. Any way, I'm enjoying this thread due to Freedom's post. So, I'll post as I please.

Since you posted that link addressing predatory lending, why not address the discrepancies regarding FHA loans? You claim to be a white collar business professional, so this should be easy for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post
This is not surprising. I've seen many folks pull out all of their equity and believe they can afford the new payments, simply because the lender approved them. I've had people come to me while in default and say they simply used the extra funds to make up the differences in payment.
Damn, that's harsh. So, are minorities more likely fall for this kind of thinking? Because honestly, I haven't seen much difference between whites and minorities. My dh was prone to falling for it. "If we qualified, then we'll be ok. They know what they're doing, etc." I qualified for a larger loan, but I didn't go for it. I ended up low-balling a few sellers without success and even tho I wanted this other home badly (could have gotten it for $269k), and had the financing, I knew I couldn't swing payments over 2k/mo. Well, I couldn't swing it according to the plan I had, which was to have a mortgage that could be carried on one income. I knew going into it that we would never have a mortgage that required two incomes. That's just too risky.

Quote:
Many more simply obtained an ARM or even worse, and Option ARM and the payments were exactly the same or less even with a much bigger new principal balance. That's how some sleazy mortgage brokers hooked people. These mortgage brokers' pitch was: "Take out all your equity and the payments would be the same. When the ARM adjusts in 2 yrs, come back and we'll put you in a fixed rate." Some may have already been qualified for a fixed rate, but the broker made a BIG commission on ARMS, and a HUGE commission on Option ARMS. People don't realize how much the mortgage brokers' commission plays a part in what product is offered to the client. I say this not as an outsider, but as someone who owns a mortgage brokerage, so I know the business because people talk and brag. Folks can even read it for themselves on mortgage broker forums out there.
As stated, clearly these people aren't going to give a fig about race. It's about money. Some people are going to be too lazy, or too naive, to bother thinking about what they're actually getting themselves into, like the two families I posted about a few pages ago (apple pickers that bought a home for 720k). Sure, the lenders were in the wrong, absolutely, but where's the personal responsibility?

Quote:
Back to the OP's previous point of race and predatory lending, One of my old long-running marketing campaigns involved researching every person in the land records of multiple areas, who obtained ARM loans from 2005 to present. All racial neighborhoods had them. I will say that borrowers from majority-Black areas seemed to have them more frequently, but what stood out is the signatures on the closing documents filed in the land records were notary witness signatures by people I knew were Black mortgage brokers or Black Realtors. I'm sure there were plenty of white mortgage brokers doing the same thing to their white clients, since greed has no color.

This is why I say we need to compare apples vs apples to determine if there is truly discrimination in lending, since many people of all races patronize people of their own color to obtain loans in the first place. It is a "let's get actual proof with real comparisons" argument, not a "it doesn't exist" argument.
I would love for this to be addressed. You're an insider so you would know, but I don't know where convincing objective data can come from for those that don't believe you.
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Old 01-30-2011, 03:33 PM
 
19,045 posts, read 25,136,590 times
Reputation: 13485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom123 View Post

Finally, I never said this was a shallow or one-dimensional thread. Please point out where I said so, and I will be happy to apologize. As long as there's dialogue, I will continue to post in this thread.

Have a good afternoon.
I did Freedom. Well, I told artsguy that posts were two-dimensional, IIRC, lack depth, etc. Either way, again, artwomyn was really addressing me. She just can't bring herself to directly address my posts for whatever reasons she has going on. So, she'll quote other people and address my posts. LOL
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Old 01-30-2011, 04:43 PM
 
25,157 posts, read 53,847,818 times
Reputation: 7058
For every opinion and fact is another opinion and fact. The fact is societies are so complex yet there have been pervasive societal trends: some of those facts are hegemony of some type and stratification/caste system of some type. It has been proven through centuries of history and anybody who wants to scream and yell and cry that most everything is equal and fair across the board is sadly entitled to their ignorant opinion and misinterpretation on the facts. The fact is most people do not study nor have they researched hegemony: so their opinions on modern day hegemonic oppression would naturally be inferior. Hegemony is so common and pervasive that it is almost impossible to not notice it: those who do notice it will do everything they can to sustain the advantage if they are within the hegemonic group. But I agree it's so sad to see such misinterpretation of facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by artwomyn View Post
I've never called you a liar. Those are your words, not mine. So you're the one that's not able to disagree respectfully. You seem unable to take this thread for what it is. You have some need, to want to see if you can create ridiculously detailed explanations, that still don't prove your point.

Despite your massively overdone research, your arguments boil down to YOUR OPINIONS, and not facts. Besides that, you're getting WAY off topic. You say that you're not trying to prove that racism doesn't exist. But you've certainly made a spectacular effort, to try and trivialize it.

By the way, if you, or any of these others posters, think that this is a 'shallow', 'one-dimensional' thread, then you're free to not post here anymore!
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Old 01-30-2011, 04:47 PM
 
25,157 posts, read 53,847,818 times
Reputation: 7058
What is your main thesis then other than posts lack depth and are two-dimensional?

I personally do not have time to write an academic thesis. However, I have kindly recommended research authors that I appreciate: Tim Wise, Dr. Edward Bonilla Silva, Dr. George A. Yancy, Dr. Michael Parenti, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braunwyn View Post
I did Freedom. Well, I told artsguy that posts were two-dimensional, IIRC, lack depth, etc. Either way, again, artwomyn was really addressing me. She just can't bring herself to directly address my posts for whatever reasons she has going on. So, she'll quote other people and address my posts. LOL
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