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Considering how many people are killed in car accidents.........you could say the same thing about how we screen people who are allowed to obtain drivers licenses.
Would you say the way we license drivers is ineffective? Perhaps we should add mental health screening to the process? For instance, should aggressive people be allowed to drive? Aggressive driving causes a lot of accidents.
The difference is the motive behind the accidents: Accidents are typically just that-accidents; no specific intent. However, when people kill with guns, they normally have the specific intent to do just that; the intent is to harm...
Since October of 2007 the FBI back ground checks for weapons is above 1 million per month, with some months going above 1.5 million, these are law bidding citizens buying guns. Another report showed that single mothers were the most buyers. Does that tell you something is in the wind?
The difference is the motive behind the accidents: Accidents are typically just that-accidents; no specific intent. However, when people kill with guns, they normally have the specific intent to do just that; the intent is to harm...
Really, so me knowingly going to the bar to get plastered, then driving my car the wrong way down the road and slamming into a limo filled with a wedding party is just an accident? Just an unhappy series of coincidences? Its about as much as an accident as a gang bangers finger slipping 10 times while driving past a crowd.
And again, your fighting the facts by cherry picking a portion. 1.5 million times a gun is used to stop a crime. Thats around the same number of crimes committed in the US every year. HALF of all crime is stopped by a gun in the hands of a private citizen.
Now the politicians are hand wringing about that stat, but as they say you know when politicians are lying, it's when their lips are moving. Now again why if gun control is the answer was there an announcement of a 18M GBP initiative to fight knife, gun and gang related crime announced this week?
Now if is as claimed about the Telegraph report, that the crimes from 1998/99 were under reported, then it still doesn't show a downward trend from the 1997 Dunblane bans, its a best flat.
If gun control was so effective, then why is there this initiative? Why at best case hasn't gun crime fallen, and why do the statistics show that it seems to be growing? Why also has just general violent crime risen in the past 10 years? You can't point to "Hey out of the past 10 years the last two crime has fallen" and call that a win, because it isn't. It shows that some other factor was involved, or it's merely not statistically relevant there are variances year to year in any population.
Once you do that research you can come back and have an informed argument.
As i have a home in London and actually spend time there, having lived there most of my life, i think i am in a far better position to have a informed argument about the gun crime in the UK than you could just by you getting info from the media. Gun crime is NOT a big problem in the UK. NO ONE is in fear of their lives from gun crime. Most of this crime is from young people who, like in any country, want to create trouble. The amount of gun crime there is like a mere drop in the ocean compared to in the USA and this is because of the tough gun laws and anti gun culture. If you ever ventured outside the USA and actually spoke to the people in the UK or even France, Germany, Spain etc etc, you will find that guns aren't even on their radar as far as things that concern or worry them..... bit different to here huh? These are the real facts not what a few newspapers say or so called "initiatives" that are probably not going to happen or are even needed. You must remember that politicians have to show they are doing something to battle crime and what is better than a "initiative" .... lmao
Really, so me knowingly going to the bar to get plastered, then driving my car the wrong way down the road and slamming into a limo filled with a wedding party is just an accident? Just an unhappy series of coincidences? Its about as much as an accident as a gang bangers finger slipping 10 times while driving past a crowd.
And again, your fighting the facts by cherry picking a portion. 1.5 million times a gun is used to stop a crime. Thats around the same number of crimes committed in the US every year. HALF of all crime is stopped by a gun in the hands of a private citizen.
Don't you find that worrying that Citizens have to use a gun to stop crime?
This does NOT happen in Countries with tough gun laws.
"You do not know the feeling of going home, closing your front door and NOT even giving a thought to anyone invading or coming to your home with a firearm. This is a USA phenomena and it makes people so paranoid that they really cannot see past that you musy "have a gun" to protect yourself Tough gun laws, as can be seen by the above statistics work and they work in many countries throughout the world...well maybe not Beirut or USA.[/quote]"
You don't seem to get it.......I am not just worried about a man with a gun breaking into my home. Any man, even a man that is the same height and weight as I am, could overpower me.......HE DOES NOT NEED A GUN! The average 14 year old boy is stronger than I am.
Men are stronger than women, they have more muscle mass. Any man who breaks into my home has the capacity to murder me with his BARE HANDS. HE DOES NOT NEED A GUN!
You are looking at this issue from a man's point of view. Apparently you cannot even imagine what it would be like to be a 5'5" - 125 lb. woman trying to defend yourself against a 6' - 180 lb. man!
Stop and think for a minute! Can't you even imagine what that would feel like?
I would hate to live in a country where a criminal KNOWS that he has free reign to break into a woman's home with the GUARANTEE that his intended victim will be totally helpless.
In the US, a criminal KNOWS, that THAT woman, alone in THAT house, MIGHT have a gun, and MIGHT kill him. That FACT alone is a deterrent.
Don't you find that worrying that Citizens have to use a gun to stop crime?
Why is that worrying? Are "Citizens" some special class of people that should be forcefully pressed against a tit to suck it their whole lives while another special class of people protects them? Are "citizens" babies and the police and the state their parents? I find this world view much more disturbing than the one where citizens are truly equal by every person being his own sovereign and self responsible.
From a post by geeoro:
"I think dogs are probably one of the best deterents anyway but i do know of instances when nintruders have entered homes and the dog has slept through it. A good excample is the little girl kidnapped from her home while her family dog slept through it."
1. The only time one of my dogs has slept through anything, is when they were very old and have lost most of their hearing, and even then, if there was a scuffle with an intruder, they would have woken up and tried to defend me ...... perhaps giving me the few seconds I need to get my gun.
2. When I hear the stories about children being abducted from a home with a dog.......here is what I think......the dog KNEW the so called "intruder". They always look at family first.....and a child abducted from under the nose of the family dog puts up a giant red flag.......there was no "intruder" involved in the disappearance.
Considering how many people are killed in car accidents.........you could say the same thing about how we screen people who are allowed to obtain drivers licenses.
Would you say the way we license drivers is ineffective? Perhaps we should add mental health screening to the process? For instance, should aggressive people be allowed to drive? Aggressive driving causes a lot of accidents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by teejuris
The difference is the motive behind the accidents: Accidents are typically just that-accidents; no specific intent. However, when people kill with guns, they normally have the specific intent to do just that; the intent is to harm...
Anti-gun ownership people always point to accidental shootings as one of the reasons guns should be banned.
As i have a home in London and actually spend time there, having lived there most of my life, i think i am in a far better position to have a informed argument about the gun crime in the UK than you could just by you getting info from the media. Gun crime is NOT a big problem in the UK. NO ONE is in fear of their lives from gun crime. Most of this crime is from young people who, like in any country, want to create trouble. The amount of gun crime there is like a mere drop in the ocean compared to in the USA and this is because of the tough gun laws and anti gun culture. If you ever ventured outside the USA and actually spoke to the people in the UK or even France, Germany, Spain etc etc, you will find that guns aren't even on their radar as far as things that concern or worry them..... bit different to here huh? These are the real facts not what a few newspapers say or so called "initiatives" that are probably not going to happen or are even needed. You must remember that politicians have to show they are doing something to battle crime and what is better than a "initiative" .... lmao
Erm you are aware that I spent 31 years of my life in the UK, up until 2001? I'm dual-national, grew up in Newcastle-upon-Tyne, spent the 90's in the British Army, leaving at the rank of Captain have lived in Newcastle, Aldershot, Yeovil and London, before moving to the US. I've also visited most of Europe, so what...? I know what my friends and family think, and it does not match with what you're thinking.
You are mistaken or oblivious if you think no one lives in fear of crime, in the US people live far more in fear of crime, "gun crime" is one form. The only possible explanation for you not to be mistaken or oblivious is if you come from the privileged classes and live in a Super-Rich enclave of London (Chelsea, Knightsbridge, etc.) with well funded police services.
Now are you honestly telling me that the reports are lying? Did London not experience a 17% increase in gun crime in 2008? Apparently Scotland Yard thinks that it did, just ask the Guardian.
Meanwhile, what is your argument? You bring some stats to support your position (a one year drop), I bring stats that refute your position (a ten year trend of overall increase), so you switch to anecdotes, I can also bring anecdotes, I used to personally know three people who were murdered in the UK (a suffocation of a four year old by a 15 year old babysitter, a stabbing, and 6 yobs who took turns jumping on one of my friends head until it turned into raspberry jam) and one who is now severely brain damaged (caused by a 38 Special from a publican who didn't like bikers), I don't personally know anyone in the US who has been murdered. Here's the facts,
in 1997 ownership of handguns was banned in the UK
in 10 years the number of firearms offenses increased by 89% (according to the Telegraph)
regardless of the reporting mechanisms we KNOW that gun crime has at BEST not fallen in those 10 years (according to hand wringing politicians who argue that the reporting changed)
Yet you support more gun control in the US because it will reduce the number of deaths. How can you possibly hold that position without being intellectually dishonest?
Ultimately the problem is there are too many people being murdered, the mechanism is not really relevant to the discussion. What is relevant is that we KNOW criminals obtain firearms, we KNOW that criminals may kill people for many reasons including theft, to eliminate witnesses, and just because they can. So how can anyone really support disarming the victims, because at the end of the day that is all that gun control achieves putting the victim in a position where they cannot legally have perhaps the most effective weapon. This position is supported by the UK who have what is claimed to be the most effective gun controls in the Western World.
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